Vista - first impressions

[needs]

OK - I think we can all agree (on this forum, anyway) that Vista is not what we want screwing up our carefully honed systems.  Furthermore, as consumers, we're not too happy about the way a lot of this stuff is being stuck on our computers, without any by your leave.

However, the answer is not Linux or any other GNU OS.  The truth of the matter is the world needs an OS like Windows.  There is no way on earth that we could get along with any OS that does not have a set of common standards.  If it wasn't for Microsoft, computing would still be in the hands of the large corporates and the anorak enshrouded hobbyists. 

The badvista site defines it well "You should also have the freedom to make modifications and use them privately in your own work or play, without even mentioning that they exist. If you do publish your changes, you should not be required to notify anyone in particular, or in any particular way."  However, this is not the route to international standardisation, such as that which has been offered by Windows (and before then, DOS).  Like it or not, Windows was a major part of a complete sea change in the way we perceive and use computers.  Going to a system whereby every Tom, Dick or Harry can make modifications for their own purpose is a step backwards and should not be encouraged.

It would seem that it's not only the home computer owners who have reservations about Vista - the corporates aren't exactly jumping on the bandwagon either (although I suspect they just object to the additional hardware costs, more than anything else).  If there is a big enough opposition (and a subsequent lack of take-up, i.e. no money changing hands) then Microsoft will probably have to re-think its business model.  As we all know, over the years, they have had several close calls in the courts and I can see the current situation vis a vis DRM shaping up to another appearance before the bench.  We just have to hang on to what we have and not allow ourselves to be sweet talked into Vista.

As we all know, over the years, they have had several close calls in the courts and I can see the current situation vis a vis DRM shaping up to another appearance before the bench. 

Could be - there is at least one claim extant that Vista's approach to DRM contravenes a fundamental right enshrined in the American Constitution!

For those of you who still want to double boot into Vista from time to time, or even want to use it for audio production, here's a link with lots of user information on audio h/w, s/w and drivers related to Vista: http://www.audioforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44

For those of you who still want to double boot into Vista from time to time, or even want to use it for audio production, here's a link with lots of user information on audio h/w, s/w and drivers related to Vista: http://www.audioforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44

Even they don't seem to be exactly positive about it - and there are a number of reports from people who want to go back to XP. Which isn't surprising...

Just an update on why I've gone quiet. There are already a good number of driver updates for my machine on Acer's FTP site. One of them is the video driver, for which the update is said to cure clicks on playback.

The zip file for just the video driver extracts to 442 separate files.    The install log shows they all succeed except the driver itself which simply reports "Fail". The machine still works with the older driver.

I have a support query awaiting a response from Acer. They are probably quite busy.

Acer must still be busy. Meanwhile, I saw a really cheap Edirol UA-20 on ebay and it arrived today. It works well enough on the XP machine. On the Vista machine with the Vista drivers from the Edirol site, there are gaps in playback, and record is utterly hopeless. The AA 1.5 level meters give a few flicks then stop at some random level, while the waveform display draws for a few milliseconds, then falls way behind the cursor, then gives up altogether. Stop recording and the waveform is displayed.

Looks like another example of a display driver problem to me.

Meanwhile, my son in the south rang to say that since I told him about the clicks on the internal laptop sound, he has now listened to his Vista machines more carefully, and they do the same. He's going to try a 'state of the art' gaming video card in one machine  to see what happens.

Where would be the best place to discuss Edirol cards and Vista?

Where would be the best place to discuss Edirol cards and Vista?

In court with Microsoft?

Where would be the best place to discuss Edirol cards and Vista?

In court with Microsoft?

LOL

But to be a bit serious, it strikes me that the problem may be more to do with the other soft or firmware writers, and the learning curve they have been thrown,

Take this Acer, for example. There's a load of Acer software on it to do with backup, power management etc. The Microsoft MVP I've had some 'discussions' with said that his HP machine had a load of software like this on delivery, and that re-formatting and installing just Vista from scratch (he says you have to do this by installing twice  ) cured all the problems for him.
Then there's the lower level stuff. This machine seems to require a different bios for Vista than for XP. The video drivers have been upgraded, and I've just found a note on an Acer site that says that all upgrades (audio, modems, mouse etc etc) must be installed simultaneously. Maybe this is why my ATI Radeon driver upgrade failed. There are a large number of huge update files. One can imagine the scope for chaos between the bios writers, the ATI writers, the Realtek and Edirol writers, whoever writes the usb abd firewire code and AMD, Intel and Microsoft.

I try to look at things as though I'm a normal user just coming to use a new machine. A few minutes ago I advised just such a person to hold off on a new machine for the time being. The worrying thing is what I said about my son. He listens to a lot of music on the computer, probably while he works. He hadn't noticed the clicks. Maybe most people don't.

What I find really weird about Microsoft are still the basic user interface things. Finding the record level controls is a project in itself. And horizontal faders, what's that all about?

I'm still glad I've tried Vista, and I don't give up easily. I'm glad I've got a copy of XP in reserve, though.

Just a small update on my efforts to make Vista work at all.

After messing about for ages, I've discovered what may be a design or other fault in this Acer machine. The audio glitches and gaps on playback using the internal soundcard (Realtek) are only there when the volume is turned up. They also happen in Ubuntu (!), so it looks like a hardware problem. I've not managed to tempt anyone on any other forum to perform the same test on a similar machine, but still live in hope that I can get one of these mad gamers to play some tone and report.

After removing all the dubious software, I can load and run AA 1.5 and get the Audition Theme to play satisfactorily via the internal soundcard, providing the audio level is kept very low. Raise the playback speaker volume and the sound starts to have gaps. Raise it more and the whole Vista visual interface locks up until the audio plays through. This is even more pronounced when playing stereo tone.

I have no idea what can be going on. I'd have thought that if it were some weird power starvation problem, the machine would have crashed, but it recovers when the audio stops. In my day, valves were never like this.

Without the dubious software, the Edirol usb device seems to work well, and there is no glitching or similar problem whatever the level.

What I have noticed is that, with either soundcard, when you hit Stop in AA, the meters hold their last position for an appreciable time and the Vista 'hourglass' sits there until the meters drop. The same operation on an XP laptop alongside looks sleek and lithe in comparison.

If anyone should encounter a friend running Vista on a laptop, and especially if it's an Acer, I'd be really interested to know if it will play tone at a reasonable level. But at least now I can work around the hardware well enough to gather a bit of a feel for Vista itself. After re-installing 6 times in various driver/software combinations, one starts to get somewhat familiar with the enemy.

The thrill of the chase goes on.

I have seen problems with Realtek sound cards reported with other Linux distros, Slax for example, so that may be a general crappy Realtek problem 

I've revived this thread because in the process of gaining examples of problems with modern laptop audio in the other thread, I was asked by someone to confirm the problem with Vista that he was fighting. Not only did I confirm it, but it suddenly explained why a relation had been having terrible trouble distributing files to her students.

If you take a password-protected zip file of over 2 megs in expanded length, and use the Vista 'Expand All' function (right click on the zip file in Explorer), everything over the 2 megs is replaced by null characters. It doesn't happen in XP or XP Media Center edition.

I just thought that anyone distributing audio or other files in this way ought to be aware of this.

If you take a password-protected zip file of over 2 megs in expanded length, and use the Vista 'Expand All' function (right click on the zip file in Explorer), everything over the 2 megs is replaced by null characters. It doesn't happen in XP or XP Media Center edition.

It's not an 'Operating' System at all, is it? It's turning out to be the exact opposite of one.

I've revived this thread because in the process of gaining examples of problems with modern laptop audio in the other thread, I was asked by someone to confirm the problem with Vista that he was fighting. Not only did I confirm it, but it suddenly explained why a relation had been having terrible trouble distributing files to her students.

If you take a password-protected zip file of over 2 megs in expanded length, and use the Vista 'Expand All' function (right click on the zip file in Explorer), everything over the 2 megs is replaced by null characters. It doesn't happen in XP or XP Media Center edition.

Did you confirm this on another machine, or on hers?

Much as would love to believe this, I cannot imagine that such a fault would have gone unnoticed by the community - and I can find no trace of it through Google.  So I have to imagine there's a more local cause, though I can't think of what it would be...

Paul

The person who asked me to confirm the zip problem has an 'Evesham' desktop, core2 6600, geforce 8800 gts, foxconn motherboard, onboard realtek sound, vista home premium 32bit. It doesn't have the audio problem.

I have my Acer 5102. It has both problems. The zip one isn't there under either version of XP, but is there under Vista.

The son and daughter-in-law have various machines including the tiny Sony laptop she uses. They didn't initially see the problem because it doesn't show on their machines. It was the students that had the problem. Installing Winzip apparently cures it (presumably it replaces some dodgy file). My son had produced some instructions to the students when the problem cropped up, but he had started by telling them to install and use Winzip. It was only when I said to him on Sunday that I'd been doing these tests that the penny dropped and he told me of their experiences.

Her students at a central London uni, must have been using newish machines, which don't have Winzip or similar. My Acer is running in pretty stripped down mode because of the other tests and has hardly any third party apps.


My contact says he has posted in microsoft.public.windows.vista.general

He, like me, was worried that it was him being stupid.

Paul, if you have a Vista machine without Winzip I can email his test file so that you, too, can be amazed and become a believer. 

Paul, if you have a Vista machine without Winzip I can email his test file so that you, too, can be amazed and become a believer. 

I suppose I'll won't be able to hold off setting up a test machine with Vista on for much longer - but at present I'm in the happy position of never actually having seen it since the first public alpha which I installed in a virtual machine about four years ago!

Paul