Looking for technical advice on M-Audio 192 and/or 2496

I am running XP Pro, but with SP3 installed.  If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that I roll-back to SP2.  I will try that next.

That wasn't quite what I said, but it's worth trying anyway. What appeared to be our problem was that it was the cumulative upgrades that appeared to cause the problem, and redoing the upgrades with SP3 installed fixed it (and produced additional upgrades as well).

Before going any farther, I should mention that my original OS was Windows 2000 Pro.
About 2 years ago, I made the switch to Windows XP Pro.

I'm wondering if the legacy 2000 install is causing the problem.  Although I am runnnig XP just fine, my subdirectory for the operating system is WINNT.  Could it be that the Creative software is getting confused by this?  I hope it references the system device mapping to determine where, and what type of drivers to install.

I could post the driver names and the locations where they are installed (about 34 .dlls and .dat files) in the hope that someone might double check against their successful installation.

Art

Before going any farther, I should mention that my original OS was Windows 2000 Pro.
About 2 years ago, I made the switch to Windows XP Pro.

That does indeed make quite a big difference. Several years ago I was involved in writing some "container" applications to ensure that CEP and AA would always run with the correct parameters and in the correct environment, and one of the specific things I had to test for was the weird W2k to XP upgrade file layout.

As befits someone of my age I now can't remember any of the specifics, but it was more than just the name of the Windows directory.

I really believe that anyone running XP would be well advised to somehow find a way to install XP from scratch and with the standard layout.

Wildduck,

I was afraid someone might corroborate my suspicions.

Do you happen to have a list of all drivers used by the 0404 and where they are mapped in a standard XP installation?  It's unfortunate that the latest drivers are deliverable on-line in an .exe.

I wrote to Emu, but based upon what many say about their product support, I'm not holding my breath.

I think I'll find someone with an XP machine to verify if the card and .exe load ok. If they do, I may be forced to at least buy another hard drive with a new XP OS.  Kind of an expensive way to get a sound card operating.

Art

Do you happen to have a list of all drivers used by the 0404 and where they are mapped in a standard XP installation?  It's unfortunate that the latest drivers are deliverable on-line in an .exe.

I don't remember whether this is the case or not for E-Mu's drivers, but generally when a something has an uninstall option, it's based on a txt file which indicates what was installed where (this is similar to the sort of information held in the Audition Help>About Audition>System Info file). So anybody who has an 0404 installed in an XP system should be able to locate this, if it exists, and give you a copy.

I don't know if Beetle is going to show up or read this thread, because he has a system like this, I believe.

I can also corroborate the unfortunate information that upgrading an OS rather than installing it from scratch is a very poor option - I wouldn't ever do it at all now, having seen on several occasions the trouble it can cause. Generally though, upgrade options can be installed from scratch - all you have to do is to put your original software disc in to verify that it's a legal upgrade. So a careful investigation of what you've already got might provide you with an answer that's cheaper than you think...

I have a very similar situation to the original one that artlane described in this thread.  I am also looking to convert a very large vinyl collection (1,500 albums) to digital.  I had also been looking at the M-Audio products until I read this thread.  After doing some additional research, I think that I am starting to head down the EMU path.  In my case, the product that I am considering is the 1616M.  There are three primary reasons for considering this card MiniDock combination...

1) The MiniDock has phono pre-amp jacks which would let me directly connect my turntable into (by passing the need to deal with a pre-amp and additional connectors).  I have a good quality tube pre-amp that I could use but its phono section will not handle a low output cartridge and I would have to hassle with the extra connections.  I am going to buy a new cartridge and I am hoping that the 1616Ms phono preamp might give me some additional flexibility. 

2) The MiniDock also has a headphone jack.  I would like headphones for critical listening/monitoring or the recording output.   My preamp does not have a jack, which leaves me to purchase an additional headphone amp  and connectors. 

3) I am assuming that the AD and DA converters are better on the 1616M than they are on the 0404.

Here are some of my questions around the 1616M:

- What are peoples thoughts about the quality of the phono pre-amp in the 1616M and does anybody know what the min effective cartridge output rating the preamp would support (e.g. .3mV)? 

- Does anyone one have an opinion on the quality of the headphone amp/circuitry on the MiniDock?  Is it accurate enough for critical listening?

- Overall, what are peoples impression of the 1616M? 

I should add that my primary concern here is the quality of the recordings.  Put simply, if I am going to take the time to digitize 1,500 albums I want to do it right.  I want the recording to be as accurate as possible so that I only have to do it once.  I also don't want to spend a lot of money for a diminishing return.  If the 1616M's additional features don't really work out for me and/or there isn't a noticeable difference in recording quality, I can save my money and buy an 0404 and put the additional money into a better cartridge.

Thanks for any ideas/thoughts

(BTW, great forum)

Steve,

I received a response from Emu support last night, essentially telling me I'm on my own, and no, they will not furnish driver mapping details nor uncompiled drivers.

I guess my next step will be to locate someone with a "standard" XP installation and see if the card and drivers load.  If they do, I will get a virgin hard drive with a fresh XP installation and gradually migrate all my programs to it, and I will retain the existing HD exclusively for data.

So it goes...  Art

3) I am assuming that the AD and DA converters are better on the 1616M than they are on the 0404.

Once again, don't take my word for it...

I simply couldn't hear any difference at all between the 1616M and 1820M. This isn't surprising considering they both contain identical converters, clocks, and most of the other circuitry apart from the input preamps, and we can safely conclude that the 1616M offers the same superb audio quality for the price as the 1820M.

Here are some of my questions around the 1616M:

- What are peoples thoughts about the quality of the phono pre-amp in the 1616M and does anybody know what the min effective cartridge output rating the preamp would support (e.g. .3mV)? 

- Does anyone one have an opinion on the quality of the headphone amp/circuitry on the MiniDock?  Is it accurate enough for critical listening?

- Overall, what are peoples impression of the 1616M? 

Essentially, the 1616m is the updated version of the 1820m with a different computer interface and reduced I/O and facilities, but of a very similar quality. In other words, excellent, and that you can take my word for - I have an 1820m, and very little else touches it in performance terms, never minds exceeding it. The 0404 has similar converters, but is a line-in line-out only device, although otherwise of a similarly high quality.

I use the phono input on the 1820m with what could be described as a 'normal' output MM cartridge and don't have any problems with it at all - it sounds good.

Similarly, the headphone output of the 1820m is also of a high quality, and I can't see why they would reduce the standard of this in a box that otherwise performs similarly. The only thing that is reduced about it at all, in fact, is the routing options, which are rather more flexible on the 1820m.

If you want to look at the the SOS review of it (we trust these, but very few others) it's here.

Steve,

I received a response from Emu support last night, essentially telling me I'm on my own, and no, they will not furnish driver mapping details nor uncompiled drivers.

I guess my next step will be to locate someone with a "standard" XP installation and see if the card and drivers load.  If they do, I will get a virgin hard drive with a fresh XP installation and gradually migrate all my programs to it, and I will retain the existing HD exclusively for data.

So it goes...  Art

Hi Art.

I have the 0404 installed under XP SP3 (and Win 7 for that matter) without problem, though the Win 7 install seems a little "flakey" at times (random pops caused by problems with another driver, not EMU, as shown by DPC Latency Checker).

If you, or Steve, can tell me where to locate the .txt file he mentions as listing all the installed components I'd be happy to post it for you to compare with your set up.

Jeff

Jeff,

I found the uninstall script under C:\Program Files\Creative Professional\Drivers\DrvInst

[Uninstall]
UninstallCommand=C:\Program Files\Creative Professional\Drivers\Program\Setup.exe
UninstallParam= /S /U /W

It appears that the uninstall program is very generic in scope, and wipes out everything in the Creative subdirectory.

What is very curious, and probably the root of the problem, is that about halfway through the install (using the latest 2.1 driver off of E-mu's web site) my PC starts reporting errors that read like the following:

CT0060W.dat
cannot copy to destination directory

This happens for over 25+ .dat files. I am given the choice of either skipping the file or retrying it's install.  If I retry, it just errors out again.

If  I use the installation CD that came with the board, these errors do not surface.  All drvers seem to install, although after rebooting, my 0404 card has a yellow exclamatory icon, and when I look at the card's properties, it has an error code of 10 -- device cannot start.

I'm going to see if it installs on another PC.  If not, back to Creative it goes and I'll opt for an M-audio... provided it works.

What's really annoying is the fact that a plain-Jane Rocketfish works wonderfully, although the dynamic range it yields is very, very questionable.

Jeff, here's a thought: if you get a chance, see where CT0060W.dat resides in your system.  I have no way of decompiling the .exe to find the files that won't load, but if you can find this one, I'll take the time to build a list of CT files (they all seem to begin with that prefix).  If you have them loaded on your system, perhaps you can e-mail me the files as attachments.

Thanks for any help at all... Art 

I wish I could remember the differences between the upgrade from W2k version and the straight install of XP, but I really think that for long term stability and usefulness, you'd be better trying to get to a totally standard XP installation. If you don't, every time you come to install any new device or software, not to mention security updates and so on, there will be the doubt about whether the system will work. Everything points to a problem with your XP setup in this case.

It's just another variable in the chaotic world of Microsoft, and something you don't need.

Honestly, I'd have thought that more HD space is always worth while, and the cost isn't too great nowadays.

As people always say, just my 2 cents.

Hi Art.

The location of the file you asked about is C:\WINDOWS\System32\Data, with, apparently a back up in C:\WINDOWS\System32\ReinstallBackups\0024\DriverFiles\Win2K_XP\Data

HTH.

Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for the tip on the location.  I'm installing the system on another PC tonight, and if successful, I will e-mail myself all the dat files and try manually installing them there.

Thanks again -- really appreciated.... Art

For what it's worth, the installation on another XP machine went fine without a hitch.
I did get a copy of all .dat files, which do not load at all on my target system.
Next, I'm going to attempt to load all .dat files under my system32/data directory.
Interesting that the data subdirectory doesn't exist, but I'll try creating it and loading the dat files there manually and conducting another reinstall to see what happens.

Yes, I just upgraded my PC through a local shop. They were supposed to install a new image of XP, but apparently did not -- it still reads C:\WINNT

As I understand it, all my programs (and there are alot of them) will have to be reloaded if I attempt a fresh install, which obviously I'd rather NOT do.

On another note, does anyone know where the system "maps" OS installation?  I remember seeing the screen once upon a time, but can't seem to find it.
Perhaps there's an adjustment there that will allow the install to "take" like it should.

I apologize for turning this audio forum into a computer forum!!

Art

OK gang - GREAT NEWS!!! (Talk about trial by fire)

When installing the system on a friend's PC last night, and putting together the post by Jeff re: where the .DAT files and others are stored, i.e. system32\data
I discovered that my WINNT legacy did not have a DATA subdirectory.

Once I manually configured the data subdirectory, the latest driver and DSP software files that were downloaded off of the E-mu site ran just fine.

So a final word-to-the-wise: watch out for Creative's installers -- they apparently DO NOT build the proper subdirectory structures if they do not exist.  That is just an incredible oversight to say the least.  In other words, there's not much intelligence built into the software for recovery on error.

Now I'm off to understand how to configure the DSP for my LP recording application.  That looks like a new venture.

Hats off to Steve and especially Jeff for helping me get this beast flying.

Best wishes,

Art