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clintfan Location: USA Posts: 455	Posted - Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:20 pm  Well, I just figured out my DAT deck has died. It's seen little use in its 10 years, and none since 1 year ago. Now it won't read tapes, just sits there flashing "48kHz" and rolling the tape with the meters flat. I'm positive the tapes are good-- the deck has just croaked. Cleaning didn't help, and I don't think it's worth fixing-- I don't even like it that much! I'm interested in replacing the deck, and would appreciate recommendations from all of you, for models you know and trust, and also sources of where to get them new or used. It would see only occasional use, so reliability is a priority. Wanting to be more careful with this purchase than I was with my replacement reel-to-reel, I thought I'd come here first this time! :] Mine was a Sony DTC-670, looks identical to a Sony A7. I already know I don't want another of these consumer models, because I don't trust the transport mechanics, it's eaten too many tapes. I'd rather have some sort of Pro model where I can drop the tape in a drawer, or maybe slide it into a slot. I don't need a portable. Thanks, -clintfan
Makedon Posts: 31	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:52 am  clintfan wrote: Well, I just figured out my DAT deck has died. It's seen little use in its 10 years, and none since 1 year ago. Now it won't read tapes, just sits there flashing "48kHz" and rolling the tape with the meters flat. I'm positive the tapes are good-- the deck has just croaked. Cleaning didn't help, and I don't think it's worth fixing-- I don't even like it that much! I'm interested in replacing the deck, and would appreciate recommendations from all of you, for models you know and trust, and also sources of where to get them new or used. It would see only occasional use, so reliability is a priority. Wanting to be more careful with this purchase than I was with my replacement reel-to-reel, I thought I'd come here first this time! :] Mine was a Sony DTC-670, looks identical to a Sony A7. I already know I don't want another of these consumer models, because I don't trust the transport mechanics, it's eaten too many tapes. I'd rather have some sort of Pro model where I can drop the tape in a drawer, or maybe slide it into a slot. I don't need a portable. Thanks, -clintfan Hi, I have/had bad luck with Sony DAT machines over the years. As a matter of fact, my Sony 55 ES just died on me recently. Exactly the same symptoms and hasn't been used much either. I also had another Sony (portable) DAT, years ago. That one actually never worked as it should and was quickly sold . You are right, they have bad transport mechanism and heads. And from what I know fixing them cost's a little fortune. Oh well, I'll just rent one (not a Sony!) when I need. But if you want to buy a more solid machine, you should check Tascam DA-20(MK-II) or DA-30(MK-II). They are not that expensive, better build and much more reliable. Good luck M.
Havoc Posts: 735	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:43 am  Fostex also makes some DAT machines. Anyone interested in replacing a portable dat should take a look at: http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 6:38 am  There must be loads of them out there for sale second hand now. Only one of the four I still have sees any action now, as CDR has really outmoded them for most purposes (or should I say, most of my purposes). I've had no significant trouble with Sony decks. I had one of the first 50 released in the UK (in 1987) and only sold it when I needed to upgrade to a SCMS-free model. I've put a lot of hours onto a PCM-2700 four head model (many commercially released classical CDs made on that, and also an A8 which has proved reliable. I had a Sony professional portable for many years which I sold when it was surplus to requirements - apart from a fault on delivery it was then problem free for thousands of hours. A Panasonic SV-3900 proved less reliable - finally I fixed it myself after a couple of expensive short-lived repairs, by brutally stretching a tensioning spring, which has (touch wood) proved a permanent fix! (It has a very handy wired remote with display and shuttle wheel). I've also had Casio and Aiwa portables - not much good but that was many years ago. The one I still use as backup to CDR on location is an HHB Portadat, very expensive, and very reliable. I doubt whether any of the above are still available. The Tascam portable if still available might be a good value for money choice, perhaps? My main location recorder these days is a quite humble Tascam CD-RW4U CDR recorder, which continues to do a good job reliably and straightforwardly. Checking over the above, I hate to think how much I have spent on DAT machines over the years! - Ozpeter
djwayne Location: USA Posts: 583	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 7:26 am  I have a Panasonic sv-3700, I bought new many years ago. Never had any problems with it. I don't use it much, but when I turn it on, it fires right up everytime.
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:59 am  It's not uncommon for DAT rotating heads to 'glaze' - especially on a machine that hasn't seen much use for a while. Quite often a head-cleaning tape, even with several passes, won't touch this at all. It may be worth getting somebody experienced with DAT repairs to take a look - cleaning the glaze off yourself by hand can be a bit treacherous if you don't have the right stuff, or the technique. But if the machine worked fine before, and died just about when you re-started using it, I'd be very suspicious about the tape/head interface - it really doesn't take much loose oxide to gum up the heads! And an honest tech won't charge you a lot for checking this - especially if you're up front about it being the only thing you want checked! I have a Sony portable - a D7 that I've had for years which still works fine, but in general, my experience with desktop models suggests that Tascam is probably a better bet... and they are available pretty cheaply now. _________________
clintfan Location: USA Posts: 455	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:25 pm  Hey thanks all for your quick replies! :) Nice to hear the Tascam's still seem fine. That had been my brief experience too: I rented a Tascam DA-30 a couple years back so I could dub to different physical tapes. Since --argghh!-- my computer tapes would jam up in the Sony --arggh!-- although they played just fine in the beat-up rental Tascam. There are quite a few Tascam 20's and 30's available on Ebay right now, and they have the drawer loading feature. In fact there are so many, I suspect it might be a constant supply. And the prices are less than 15% of original list. So low, I might go for that. Know any other sources? I'll think a bit more first and consult my wife ("What? That thing's dead already!?"), who was shocked to realize our DAT would turn 10 in two more months. Oh yeah, and Steve, no harm in cracking it open now I guess-- I was always wary of that before. I'll take a good look for oxide or glaze. If it looks bad, I'll call around. Thanks again, -clintfan
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:10 pm  Quote: Oh yeah, and Steve, no harm in cracking it open now I guess-- I was always wary of that before. I'll take a good look for oxide or glaze. Disclaimer: The following info is provided with no warranty whatsoever - whatever you do with it is entirely upon your own head. If you want to have a go at head cleaning yourself, then the important things to note are as follows - the head is basically the same as a video head, and can be cleaned with isopropanol. The best thing to use is chamois leather, not cotton buds, and to make sure that you only wipe the leather across the head in the same direction that the tape would travel - ie, do not wipe sideways across the head. These head drums are small and fiddly - you really do have to be very careful with them. Other cleaning solutions will be fine as long as they contain pure alcohol and leave no residues. This pretty much rules out anything other than a proprietry brand of isopropyl alcohol. The alcohol will soften oxide and binder deposits - hopefully including the deposit aound the head gap. I believe that it is the oxide binder that causes the 'glazing' effect, and this can take a while to soften, which reminds me... Sometimes just letting a tape play for ages in the machine, and then running the cleaning tape through will work. You don't want to run the cleaning tape too often, though, because they are mildly abrasive. Once they have removed what was not supposed to be there, they promptly start on what should be there! _________________
clintfan Location: USA Posts: 455	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:11 pm  Thanks for the tip, Steve. You were right on the money. Before I read your reply, I had already gone ahead and extracted the deck from the rack. Opened it up (hey- where'd they put the $600?) removed the --yes-- cobwebs, and did a sort of very delicate cleaning of the drum using 91% isopropyl (normal is 70%). I used a cotton swab, probably the worst thing to use, but was careful to leave no fibers. No effect. Not sure I'd really cleaned anything of consequence, I then went back and touched up just the heads-- two tiny little iron cores that rotate with the drum, each only 1.5mm across, so small I almost didn't notice them. Still no audio, but I noticed the deck now seemed to know my test tape was recorded at 32kHz (the only tape I ever did like that). Repeated. Got some chatter from the test tape, then lost it. Finally, just for kicks I re-ran the cleaning tape for 30 seconds instead of the usual 10. Started seeing Start ID's. Know what? It's (..sob.. sob...) working! (..sob.. sniff..). For how long, who knows, might need more cleaning. So why the tears? (Sniff..) I guess I really wanted a new deck! Now it might be harder to justify that. I've always been really good at fixing almost anything, so I have all this old stuff around all the time. Blessing or curse, same old trap, I guess. Thanks everyone. Especially listen to that Steve guy, he's worth every one of those 6000+ posts! May still be a Tascam in my future; we'll see. I'd like to be able to trust whatever deck I use, not sure this one fits that bill. -clintfan
clintfan Location: USA Posts: 455	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:45 pm  Well I spoke too soon, it's dead again. I suspect the success I had earlier this afternoon was merely another personality to its flaky behavior. It's back to its same old tricks, and even repeating more of the same cleaning exercises, I was unable to restore operation. I could try to find a pro cleaning shop, but now I really don't trust the thing. So I guess I'm off shopping.... :D -clitnfan
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:58 pm  You sound so upset. Let's just hope your wife doesn't notice the chewing gum on the head.:) Happy shopping! Doubtless you'll tell us the outcome in due course. - Ozpeter
clintfan Location: USA Posts: 455	Posted - Sat Jun 14, 2003 10:58 pm  LOL! Oh yeah, real upset! Actually, she's great, very supportive. Sitting here not 10 minutes ago I was showing her some Ebay DAT listings, and she was explaining some of the Ebay nuances to me. Looks like I'll be in Used DAT Heaven before long. :???: Hey, anyone who has access to a Tascam DA-20/30/40 class machine... can the rackmount brackets be removed (via screws), or are they integral to the chassis? The Tascam site's "detailed photo" makes them look possibly removable, which would be best for fitting into my stack, but it's only front-view so I really can't tell, and the manual doesn't say. -clintfan
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:59 am  clintfan wrote: Well I spoke too soon, it's dead again. I suspect the success I had earlier this afternoon was merely another personality to its flaky behavior. It's back to its same old tricks, and even repeating more of the same cleaning exercises, I was unable to restore operation. I could try to find a pro cleaning shop, but now I really don't trust the thing. So I guess I'm off shopping.... This is why I was a little cautious - this sort of scenario is quite common. One of the problems with these mechanisms is that there's very little room for manoeuvre, and the tolerances are pretty tight. Glaze and muck can build up throughout the transport mechanism and cause tolerances to stray beyond the acceptable quite easily, and to a certain extent, this is where good design comes into play. And I have to say that Tascam decks are more tolerant than Sony ones from this point of view. It isn't anything major - it's just the detailed design of things like tape guides, and the loading mechanism. You certainly can keep Sonys going, but in general it's more effort than keeping a Tascam in the same state of readiness. And it is very true that machines that get used more tend to break down less - the tape, as well as causing these problems, also helps to clear them, and regular use tends to reduce the glaze build-up - it's just one of those things. What you will probably find is that if you persevere with your Sony, one of two things will happen. You will either wreck the head channel completely, or it will gradually clear up. You probably got just enough muck off it to get it to work on the edge of its tolerance, and no more. You only have to put one slightly iffy (hasn't been played for a while) tape in it to get it right back to the non-working starting point again. _________________
clintfan Location: USA Posts: 455	Posted - Sun Jun 15, 2003 11:11 pm  I've given up on the Sony. It's been fun, but we'll try for a DA-20MkII tomorrow.
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:58 am  Do you think if I sold all of my DAT machines I could afford this instead? Never have I desired more something so unaffordable! (SWMBO apart). - Ozpeter
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:23 am  ozpeter wrote: Do you think if I sold all of my DAT machines I could afford this instead? Never have I desired more something so unaffordable! (SWMBO apart). As usual, I couldn't see a price. I think HHB do this on purpose to avoid consequential liability claims for expensive medical treatment (heart attack, trauma teams, etc). So go on, I'm sitting down - emmachisit? _________________
Havoc Posts: 735	Posted - Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:13 am  Yeah, looks great, would be great as well.....dream on.....
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:24 am  I think it's still at the 'announced' stage rather than at the purchasable stage. The 'Portadat' was about 5,000 pounds sterling with timecode (that's the odd-looking double-deck version; I have and love the little single-decker costing around 3500 - for perspective my wife's just paid that for about the best power wheelchair that money can buy!) - I'd guess this 'Portadrive' will go for around 10,000, to movie sound recordists to whom that is probably peanuts. And who have a fancy ProTools system to plug it into at the end of the day. But it really does seem to combine everything you might need on a location recording into one very neat package. Perhaps HHB should give one away to the person who guesses the nearest. And Clintfan - don't try to argue Mrs C into one of these. I think that would be a bridge too far. Hope you don't mind me diverting your thread while we await your purchasing decision. - Ozpeter
Craig Jackman Location: Canada Posts: 909	Posted - Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:11 am  The Sony PCM-R500's we have here appear to be indestructible, as does an ancient PCM-2700 that's been in use for years. On the other hand, when we were heavily into ADAT and DAT before Cool Edit, I could wear out a Panasonic 3700, 3900 or 4100 in about 10 months. I've had 6 Panasonics over the years and if I never see another one it will be too soon. _________________ Craig Jackman Production Supervisor CHEZ/CKBY/CIOX/CJET/CIWW Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:46 pm  ozpeter wrote: But it really does seem to combine everything you might need on a location recording into one very neat package. Perhaps HHB should give one away to the person who guesses the nearest. That's the trouble with being upside down - you get these fanciful ideas... But I'd agree that the HHB seems to have an ideal mix of facilities for location HD recording. I've looked into this recently, and I think that there may be a few slightly cheaper options around - not as nice, certainly, but I don't think that my bank manager has that much of a sense of humour... _________________
clintfan Location: USA Posts: 455	Posted - Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:54 pm  Quote: And Clintfan - don't try to argue Mrs C into one of these. I think that would be a bridge too far. Hope you don't mind me diverting your thread while we await your purchasing decision. -ozpeter Diversions? No problem. They're always enjoyable when you folks are hanging around here. Not sure how rugged that thing is though, looks like too much plastic for me for the estimated price. Little confused about the "external keyboard connector" on the side... where's the display? And what's with putting the headphone jack on the back? Sheesh! I do like that they built it with a removable HD though. Hope they can solve all those click, skip, and stutter problems before first ship (just kidding). "Awaiting my purchasing decision?" Ha! You guys give me too much credit! Oh, and speaking of too much credit, it's a bouncing baby Tascam DA-20MkII! -clintfan
djwayne Location: USA Posts: 583	Posted - Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:20 am  Craig Jackman wrote: The Sony PCM-R500's we have here appear to be indestructible, as does an ancient PCM-2700 that's been in use for years. On the other hand, when we were heavily into ADAT and DAT before Cool Edit, I could wear out a Panasonic 3700, 3900 or 4100 in about 10 months. I've had 6 Panasonics over the years and if I never see another one it will be too soon. Like I said, I haven't had any trouble with mine, but I use it lightly. I prefer disk recording, and if it were to konk out on me, I probably wouldn't replace it. I save it for those rare occassions that I specifically need the DAT format for transfers.
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:43 am  Having mentioned portable recording equipment, I'll tack this link in here - this device doesn't seem to have been mentioned here before (probably because it's a bit OT, I must admit, but still interesting). http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html - Ozpeter
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