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Havoc Posts: 735	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:32 am  Sorry for this, but it is getting a bit on my nerves lately. Don't you guys have anything else to do than to speculate about the future? Lots of the posts are dealing with adobe, what might come, what may happen and what could disappear. We don't know what will happen...... First: There is nothing we can do apart from letting know our feelings to adobe. I think they already know it by now. Adobe bought the assets, it is now their game according to their rules. Sorry, but that is the reality. If they decide to drop the forum, then they will drop it. If they decide to make CEP an mac only application, then that is what it will be. This is not unthinkable, it has happened before. Second: There is life outside CEP and its forum! Yes, I'll be sorry to see it go, but if it goes, then so be it. Whatever changes, we can follow or not. We DO have a choice, and this is the only power we -the users- have. Since synth refused to solve the dual amd problem (there he goes again...) I started looking at other solutions. And there are plenty, as well as some good forums. CEP is a tool to make music, so now I use several tools, depending on the problem. I admit we have been spoiled, but you can make music with something else, even without pc's. Third: The knowlegde on the forum will not disapear! It will be more fragmented, and it will take time to get it all together again, but the brains will be out there. Just wait and see. If what you see later does not fit your bill, then it's up to you. Adobe knows our expectations, now it up to them, their turn to play. When more is known, it will be our turn again. It is a game, don't take it to serious. I hope this was the last post on the subject, I'm through with it.
bonnder Posts: 215	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:37 am  There, now, don't you feel better??? As Freud, et al. have posited - we feel better when we talk about our feelings. If we can share our feelings with others, we are less likely to be traumatized by them. That's all everyone else is doing. Do you really wish to deny them that? --------------- p.s. - in re-reading, this post sounds patronizing. I truely do not intend it to be Havoc.
kylen Posts: 290	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:38 am  You won't like the new post on top of you then. Maybe you're done but I ain't!:D 'Forum data export and Forum viewer ??' kylen
jonrose Location: USA Posts: 2901	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:22 am  I can accept all of that. It's a loss, but I can accept it. There is one thing I find unacceptable, however.... Their search engine is DIRE. And I've told them as much, in their online support survey. I just don't understand how anyone using it could find a quarter of what they're looking for! Best.... -Jon _________________
Craig Jackman Location: Canada Posts: 909	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 1:15 pm  Adobe Fud. Must be Elmer's half brother that went to university and made something of himself. :] Sorry, couldn't resist. _________________ Craig Jackman Production Supervisor CHEZ/CKBY/CIOX/CJET/CIWW Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Cal Location: USA Posts: 577	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:35 pm  Havoc, maybe you could just trip lightly through the forum and by-pass anything having to do with Adobe... and save yourself the anguish. ;) There are p-u-h-l-e-n-t-y of TV programs that have never appeared on my screen because I don't like their content. Not one of them has the chance to bother me. _________________ Cal
William Rose Location: USA Posts: 467	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:39 pm  Ok it's killing me. What the hell was "Adobe FUD" supposed to mean ? I'm guessing it's a typo, rather than an abbreviation, but I can't seem to picture the intent. Adobe FUN ? Ok, I'm tapped.
William Rose Location: USA Posts: 467	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:50 pm  FEUD ?
kylen Posts: 290	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:58 pm  I thought it was something you could get your mouth washed out with soap for - but I can say the last letter stands for 'Discussion'.:O Havoc - can you come back it here and spell it out for us We won't talk about that thing [much] anymore... kylen
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:23 pm  Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - technique said to have been used by IBM in the early days of PCs to attack other companies - which I'm sure wasn't true. - Ozpeter
Princeamor Location: USA Posts: 41	Posted - Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:28 pm  Well this is a Forum where anyone can put their opinions so those who still talk about it wont stop just because you said so. :O ;) _________________ Dj Luz
Havoc Posts: 735	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:31 am  Quote: Maybe you're done but I ain't! I don't know, I won't read it. But in a way, you are done. Correction "were done". The minute synth sold out, the rules changed. Until the new rules are know, we are in the dark. And if you for a minute think that a company as large as adobe is going to listen to a few customers, you are dreaming. What the big paid marketing dudes say goes, even if the janitor sees that it is all BS. Or external consultants, even worse. If they have a vision of forums, then it will be their vision, however daft it may be. Quote: There are p-u-h-l-e-n-t-y of TV programs that have never appeared on my screen Lucky you if you find some that please you! I don't even bother with TV these days. Quote: Well this is a Forum where anyone can put their opinions Yep, but all the adobe stuff is mostly not about opinions. It is just speculation of the worst kind.
kylen Posts: 290	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:27 am  Quote: And if you for a minute think that a company as large as adobe is going to listen to a few customers, you are dreaming. There's no Cool Edit Users Group. No organization. No Front. Nobody has to listen to one or 2 individuals at a time. You got that right ! But they have to listen to a body of users. But what about the FUD thing - is it what ozpeter says ? kylen
Shazbot Location: USA Posts: 60	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:29 am  Adobe is Elmer Fudd's technology software developing brother. Or, excuse me... bwothah. _________________ http://www.ericendres.com
William Rose Location: USA Posts: 467	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:20 am  ozpeter wrote: Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - technique said to have been used by IBM in the early days of PCs to attack other companies - which I'm sure wasn't true. - Ozpeter That has the ring of truth. Good pull. But you could have said, "I'm afraid it might not have been true. Or was it ?...." :) See, then you would have encompassed the F, the U, and the D, in a single sentence..........
Havoc Posts: 735	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 11:38 am  I would have tought that people spending so much time with their pc's would know FUD. It is indeed as Oz said Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Meaning it is nothing else but rumours, but so constructed that a fragment info here and there taken a tiny bit out of context, seem to suppport those rumours, making them very real. Quote: But they have to listen to a body of users. Sorry to shatter your dreams, but did Emagic listened to their 30% customers that were pc users? I don't think we even represent that number for adobe as a whole. The nice powerpoint presentations of the maketing dudes, that is reality for a company! Certainly if you trow in a few nice buzzwords. Not the bottom line, not common sense and certainly not the customers. Ever read a mission statement?
beetle Location: USA Posts: 2591	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:37 pm  Geez guys! They have said repeatedly that Adobe wants to keep this forum and it's members in place. Their product already has a built-in user base, and sooner or later, they will need all of us to help out the avalanvce of new users. Just think of all those questions from newbies who want to remove vocals!
William Rose Location: USA Posts: 467	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:23 pm  beetle wrote: Geez guys! They have said repeatedly that Adobe wants to keep this forum and it's members in place. Their product already has a built-in user base, and sooner or later, they will need all of us to help out the avalanvce of new users. Just think of all those questions from newbies who want to remove vocals! Excellent point. I thought maybe I had missed something, but the last I heard was from "ProSupport" where he said their "Intent" was to just haul everything from here, over there. At least in some form or another. Maybe everybody forgot, or for some reason, didn't buy it. I do wonder how they plan to keep the membership intact though. For instance, I have already registered over on their site as "William Rose", and unless they're gonna have the Audition forum registration kept apart from the rest, I don't see how they could just "move" all of this without conflicts arising. Sorry Havoc. But this is at least speculation based on quoted intentions.
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:38 pm  And this is a bit of not-really speculation based on having a close look at the structure of their forums. It's like taking a step back into the dark ages. Pictures? Diagrams? forget it. A 4000 character limit on threads that are already difficult to read. A kludgy quoting format, and we'll take Jon's word for the state of the 'search' engine. And only half an hour to correct c*ckups? Emoticons? Emotiwhats? And I dare say there's more - or perhaps I should say less. And you'd better brush up on your HTML. Is it just me, or is there rather more stuff on this forum alone than the whole of the Adobe cluster? It's very hard to tell. And it's really hard to see what's going on, IMHO. What happens to old stuff, or is there really that little of it? Since the technical presentation is so unfriendly, I wouldn't be surprised if there really wasn't much. Now, beetle said Quote: Geez guys! They have said repeatedly that Adobe wants to keep this forum and it's members in place. If they have said this, can you show me where? As far as I can tell, all the statements I've seen have been somewhat ambiguous. Let me reiterate - this is not mere speculation about their 'forums' - check them out for yourself - don't neccessarily take my word for it. *edit* See my later post about an update on this info - and bear in mind that I couldn't do this edit at all on the new forum! _________________
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:44 pm  William Rose wrote: I thought maybe I had missed something, but the last I heard was from "ProSupport" where he said their "Intent" was to just haul everything from here, over there. At least in some form or another. I don't see how they can. Their forum structure doesn't support half of what's in this one. This post's formatting won't make it for a start! _________________
William Rose Location: USA Posts: 467	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:55 pm  Right, in addition to the point I raised about membership. And if it doesn't fit, guess what happens ? Anyway, here's the post I was talking about. Syntrillium Support wrote: Hi Everyone, As far as the future of this forum, from what I understand, it will be moved to adobe's site under it's own product heading. We intend to keep all users and posts. So you can continue sharing knowledge. I guess we could always dream that Adobe will see the light, or relative light, and then, feeling inferior, change over to Snitz or something better than whatever it is they're running. (SORRY Havoc !)
kylen Posts: 290	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:11 pm  OK you forum people. If you like this forums format but don't like the features of the new forum we got 2 choices: 1. Wait to get our mutton's cooked. 2. Organize and present some clear reasonable requirements and possible alternatives (not nessary though requirements will suffice) to Adobe thru the Adobe Audition Users Group. The Adobe Audition Users Group would include elected officials, a mission statement (right Havok ?), and whatever else is needed per other similiarly organized user groups that wield any power and add value to a product. It would go something like this (pending nominations and elections): Code: President: SteveG\nVice Pres: Ozpeter\nSecretary of State: Graeme\nSecretary of Defense: Voodoo\nSeargents at arms: All of the Roses\nVarious scientists and ministers: Post78, 2bdecided, AMSG,\n (SteveG would be hanging out here too), Craig, bonnder,\n and a lot of other people I missed but need titles... First AAUG meeting in Spain !8) Well ? It does work. You gotta tell somebody when you want something else how else can they accomodate you ? We're all preachin to the choir here... kylen
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:16 pm  "We intend..." I don't see how it can be anything other than a pig-awful mess. Take that character limit, for instance. There are plenty of posts around that blow it on this forum - that's about 5-600 words if they're long ones! This post is already nearly 50 words long and it hasn't started compared to some I've seen. If you include spaces, you get about 90 characters to a typed line, so you'd get about 45-ish lines. The road to Adobe is paved with good intentions... (No, don't put the original word back in and assume that I'm associating Adobe with a very warm place where toasting forks rule - that's not quite what I had in mind! They just need a complete rethink of their forums.) _________________
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:12 pm  Quote: we'll take Jon's word for the state of the 'search' engine Oh. I've just tried it for the first time and it seemed fast, flexible and helpful (in finding relevant posts on their forums). Maybe I'm missing the point somehow as Jonrose's experience was so different. - Ozpeter
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:15 pm  Can I call the meeting to order... in the new Adobe Audition forum?? John (or JohnC or JC or John Cornicello or any number of less flattering ways we reference the forum manager... but, shhh... don't tell him I said that) said we could get one started ahead of schedule and let some of you folks have first crack at it. I get to hold the baton... tho, more likely, you guys will make the music and I will merely wave it in time to whatever you do. But, we'll have fun. Anyway, it's a blank page now, but I'm betting not for long. Head over to http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?13@@.1de98f7a Register if you haven't yet (that will get you anywhere within the Adobe forums), and I'll help everyone get to know the software. Oh... I haven't posted in this topic, don't know who all has run into me and who hasn't. I am one of the forum volunteers for Adobe, my main charge the last few years has been to herd the cats that help out in the forums in various ways. That includes helping do tire kicking for forum upgrades and helping folks find their way about when there are significant changes. I also loosly organize folks that help on creating and maintaining FAQ topics so people can point to them when new people come in with the same ol', same ol' question that's been asked, and answered... how many times now?!? You guys are no doubt familiar with that picture!
kylen Posts: 290	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:30 pm  Thanks DorthyK that was fun ! :) kylen
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:38 pm  It should be good all around, just a bit to get used to is all. But, we're all geeks, right, we can deal with whatever new stuff they throw our way! Ya, ah-huh... for me it's knowing where the brains are to pick when I need help with something! Good reason to hang out in support forums!
bonnder Posts: 215	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:42 pm  "But Miss K", he whined, "the search function at that address doesn't work." I stared at that blank slate for a while and thought about coming back here and saying "OK, Judas - go make the first post". But then I thought that saying something like that wouldn't be "professional", so I won't say it.
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:49 pm  Be brave! Actually you wouldn't be the first... but you can be the second if you hurry!
bonnder Posts: 215	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:01 pm  Doesn't sound like she got it.
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Wed Jul 09, 2003 10:10 pm  Feel free to explain... or email if you'd like. Sorry, there are many ways I might guess at your meaning, most of them more cryptic then I'm willing to assume. Plain speaking works best for me. Dorothyk@TheOffice.net
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:08 am  It's not quite as bad as I feared - apart from that edit time limit and post size. IMG links do work, it seems, and I've figured a way around the emoticon problem, I think. Come to that, I've figured a way around the post size thing too, but I'm deliberately keeping quiet about that. No, it doesn't involve doing anything illegal with the Adobe forum, before you ask. But to use that forum efficiently, you are going to have to use some sort of a hypertext editor, and cut and paste it into the cute little box. Typing in all that code is a pain - and anyway at least using an editor would let you preview it... DorothyK said that she does things like 'helping do tire kicking for forum upgrades'. Now, Dorothy, here's a little challenge for you: You've been here, and seen just how much of an improvement this forum is in terms of being editable, etc. Since the Adobe forum appears to accept most of the hypertext neccessary, now about trying to persuade the forum manager to integrate a basic editor into the system desktop? I think that this would ease the pain quite a bit. So maybe it is fixable - it just needs a jump-start! And it's not immediately obvious how the forum is to be moderated. For instance, somebody called warezthief has just joined it. I seem to recall him from elsewhere... any comments about that? _________________
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:23 am  I've just looked at something that ozpeter did, and said on the other forum. This editing thing is going to be a right royal PITA. Somebody really ought to fix it - it's not at all helpful. _________________
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:27 am  http://www.adobeforums.com/images/edithelp.htm is essential reading (that's not a reply to your two posts, SteveG). And I've just learned that I need to use <i> instead of [ i ]. And I'm almost too old to change. - Ozpeter
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:36 am  SteveG, the jury's perhaps still out on the matter of being able only to edit the most recent post - it did just now allow me to appear to edit my last-but-one post but then I got "no access" message when I posted the edit - but that could be the 30 minute timeout happening. Grrr. I have to say the last few posts here in relation to Havoc's thread title are a bit ironic!! But at least now we are down to brass tacks, so FUD it isn't. - Ozpeter
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:00 am  I'll post something positive - the Cool Edit Pro knowledgebase here seems to have 81 entries. The Photodeluxe knowlegebase on the Adobe site has at least 3000. Hopefully the Audition knowledgebase will quickly be built up to comparable proportions and that should help obviate many of the routine questions here (or rather, there). Then we can sit back and discuss pipe organs or old reel-to-reel machines at our leisure. - Ozpeter
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:25 am  ozpeter wrote: http://www.adobeforums.com/images/edithelp.htm is essential reading (that's not a reply to your two posts, SteveG). And I've just learned that I need to use <i> instead of [ i ]. And I'm almost too old to change. - Ozpeter I read that before. What I learned was that even though there's supposed to be an editor, it doesn't seem to be available - or is that little box just it? And anyway, this is a Web Crossing system - just like Snitz, it's not owned by Adobe. Okay, it's just another forum engine - and we're not used to it. In some ways it's demonstrably not as good. In other ways, it might be possible to make it do a few things that this one won't - I don't know yet. Hypertext formatting I can live with, but... I really would like to see one or three basic changes to the implemetation. In a technical forum, not being able to edit posts for more than half an hour will potentially leave all sorts of misleading information around that could easily be fixed by its authors. And having a post length limit is just plain silly - with no limit on the post length, this forum hasn't grown to an unmanageable size, after all. And having a proper on-screen editor would be so much easier... I remember when this forum finally got sorted out - it was like a breath of fresh air. I think that Adobe could do a lot worse than talk to Paul (the Syntrillium Webmaster, if he still is) about this. _________________
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:39 am  I'm having trouble with a link here... so I'll post an extract from the Web Crossing site - Quote: Why doesn't the Quick Editor work for some users? Description: Hosts and the sysop may find that the quick edit functions are not available when creating folder or discussion descriptions. Often the user doesn't realize the problem is limited to hosts and the sysop, and thinks quick edit doesn't work at all. Solution: Release 2.0.2 added checkboxes in the General Settings section of the control panel to control whether the Quick Editor is available to hosts and the sysop. Add a check to the box to enable the Quick Editor for hosts and the sysop. In earlier releases, hosts and the sysop cannot use the Quick Editor. Whether this casts any light on the matter, I don't know. - Ozpeter
Havoc Posts: 735	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:43 am  Quote: ....my main charge the last few years has been to herd the cats that help out in the forums in various ways. That includes helping do tire kicking for forum upgrades and helping folks find their way about when there are significant changes. I also loosly organize folks... Nice job description you have my sympathy. From personal experience : herding even a single cat can be quite a job. William: you do not have to apologise every other mail. I can stand being corrected (or flamed). I had a nice apprentice training in it. Oz: doesn't matter, at least it is getting constructive.
William Rose Location: USA Posts: 467	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:01 am  DorothyK wrote: It should be good all around, just a bit to get used to is all. But, we're all geeks, right, we can deal with whatever new stuff they throw our way! Ya, ah-huh... for me it's knowing where the brains are to pick when I need help with something! Good reason to hang out in support forums! Dorothy, is Adobe absolutely flat broke ? Are they going to soon be seeking protection from creditors ? Because if Syntrillium could afford this forum, and they did, then why wouldn't Adobe. As an "Adobe Audition" user, I consider this to be a statement that reads, "Eff you. We don't want people to hang out or enjoy their forum experience. This is a place for questions about Adobe products that we would rather not bother Adobe Support with, and this is as cheap a format as we could possibly provide." The only thing to "get used to" is getting by with less. The Adobe forums are....embarrassing. I won't be there. I posted once, and that was it. So, if you want to be helpful, your "Golly-gee, Shucks, Don't-Let-It-Get-You-Down, It's-Fun-Roughing-It, Gosh-Darn-Text-Anyway, Kick-The-'ol-Tires, Turn-That-Frown-Upside-Down" approach is oh, somewhat less than what one could have hoped for. You say there's someone, JC, who is actually employed by Adobe to perform forum upgrades ? Ok, who's kid is he ? What grade is he in, and, what's he gonna do with all the money he's saved up mowing lawns this summer ? If you can point out a single feature that is comparable, or better than it's counterpart here, I'll take it all back and do your laundry for a year. But until those forums are revamped........... And no, we're not all geeks. And I don't think it's brains you've been picking.
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:24 am  Quote: "This is a place for questions about Adobe products that we would rather not bother Adobe Support with, and this is as cheap a format as we could possibly provide." Except that it's not. Web Crossing software costs money - Snitz is better, and FREE. OTOH, I'd agree about 'cheap' using one of the other definitions of the word... _________________
William Rose Location: USA Posts: 467	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:39 am  Yes. And that's how I meant it. I mean Good Lord, Steve ! It isn't that it's not "User-Friendly", it's "User-Resistant" !
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:42 am  "Better" is a relative term. I'd just posted over there a couple of the reasons it's pretty lean. One is in deference to folks on slow dial-up, since most Adobe products are visual based, many users want to post pictures to illustrate their problem... and you can imagine what a pain that can be when people post huge images because they don't know enough to resize them. Also, a lot of people use the forums via newsreaders, and they get to slog through any/all code to try to find messages. Not good. Most of the forum regulars will just skip posts with a bunch of code. Our image mantra is to post links to images... not as fun certainly, but in the case of the software we deal with, essential on a very practical level.
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:51 am  DorothyK wrote: "Better" is a relative term. Yup, it certainly is. It's the term we use when you make two lists of features and make a relative comparison, which is what we've effectively done. I replied to your nearly identical post 'over there' - all of the points you make are valid, but addressable. At least, they are if there is any will to. The ball is somewhat in Adobe's hands - what are they going to do with it? _________________
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:54 am  Editing has a 30 minute time limit. Again, because JC and the bunch of hosts and forum regulars have had enough abuse of edit capabilities that it's been restricted. In an ideal world, you have grown up people that own up to mis-statements and avoid personal attacks and such. In the world we live in, tho, we find that people want to moderate what they said after the fact and deny ever having said such a thing. A 30 minute window reduces the ability to play those games. I've also never had much problem with the posting length limit. One reason for it tho is so people can't post novelettes in that initial post to a new topic. We've made use of the software's 'feature' of always displaying the initial post. That helps remind everyone of the initial question and can help keep things 'on-topic'. It gets to be a bit of a pain having to scroll past a long initial post every time you hit a topic. [added: btw, folks with host right can edit anytime, so it's a question of asking a host for help if you really need something, there are about a dozen hosts around and a few others that may have host access for other reasons... ie: people that do FAQ's get host rights in the FAQ area.]
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:00 am  Given that the Adobe takeover must have been pretty widely known at Syntrillium for some time, it seems strange that they put so much effort into the forum upgrade not that long ago if they had any inkling that it would disappear into the standard Adobe format before very long. I'd love to know the background.... but doubtless we never will. The passions raised, DorothyK, are due to the nature of the format having been to quite a degree formative to the working of the 'community' here and to its particular nature and scope. That's why there will doubtless be ongoing kicking at this particular door, I'm afraid. I do hope that you will be able to convey the degree of concern to those empowered within Adobe to make decisions in these matters. - Ozpeter
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:15 am  I'm seeing posts being added, not ignoring them, and I appreciate the sentiments and concerns expressed. Whenever it was (last weekend?) that this forum went down, and, as a result, I found my way over here, there was a discussion about relative size of the forums. I just peeked at the current month totals for the Adobe forums. We've had a total of 1,671,624 page views and 47,983 posts so far this month. And it's just the morning of the 10th... in the summer, which tends to be the quiet time of year. You have to have a darn beefy engine tho run it. We've had software that couldn't pull the load, and you end up with huge problems. So, Adobe spends the big bucks and goes with the most robust software, with the best support, available. It ain't cheap folks! But it's good. And powerful. Just not as pretty. But, pretty takes grunting too, so we save the heavy work for the business of helping people with their problems. At some point in the relatively near future the forums are going to be going through a major version upgrade, not certain what that will add, but there will be changes.
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:20 am  Thanks, that gives some useful perspective. - Ozpeter
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:29 am  DorothyK wrote: Editing has a 30 minute time limit. Again, because JC and the bunch of hosts and forum regulars have had enough abuse of edit capabilities that it's been restricted. In an ideal world, you have grown up people that own up to mis-statements and avoid personal attacks and such. In the world we live in, tho, we find that people want to moderate what they said after the fact and deny ever having said such a thing. A 30 minute window reduces the ability to play those games. I can't honestly say that we've ever had this problem here - or not to any extent that it's been an issue. If people make mistakes, then they can't deny saying them - the 'quote' system takes care of that. And people do admit to mistakes - even me. I did so only the other day, in fact. If you treat people like children, then they will behave like children. There are far better ways of dealing with this than denying them the opportunity to develop into human beings. What you are doing is not good psychology. The serious personal attack thing has occurred - but we'd see the job of forum moderator as being responsible for damage limitation in that area. It doesn't usually last too long, anyway. There is still some evidence around on this forum - but the threads are locked. Can you do that on the Adobe forum? Quote: I've also never had much problem with the posting length limit. One reason for it tho is so people can't post novelettes in that initial post to a new topic. We've made use of the software's 'feature' of always displaying the initial post. That helps remind everyone of the initial question and can help keep things 'on-topic'. It gets to be a bit of a pain having to scroll past a long initial post every time you hit a topic. Whilst I'd recognise that it is a good discipline to be able to express yourself in relatively few words, there have been threads where this is quite an unreasonable thing to do. Yes, you get the odd novelette (certainly from at least one member whose name begins with 'A'...) but why should we restrict his ability to express some pretty complicated ideas? This forum isn't just about asking questions - it follows more the model of a true forum, where people can express themselves and thrash these ideas out. You can't do this with pictures - and if you take away the ability to do it with words, then you ain't got no forum. Isn't this precisely what this thread's about? And isn't it a lot easier to have this discussion here? Quote: since most Adobe products are visual based, many users want to post pictures to illustrate their problem... Audio isn't like the picture-based stuff that Adobe is clearly used to - we can't post audio here, so it always comes from links. If we want to post pictures, it's not for the same reason... Quote: [added: btw, folks with host right can edit anytime, so it's a question of asking a host for help if you really need something, there are about a dozen hosts around and a few others that may have host access for other reasons... ie: people that do FAQ's get host rights in the FAQ area.] Fine, but that's not going to help the majority of users to learn any discression, is it? _________________
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:36 am  Ah, John... now John is a character, no doubt to rival most of you, and certainly well beyond me. You can click on his name anywhere you find it in the forums to see his official profile ( http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?224@@ee6b2ac@.1de9d4ea/18 for a shortcut for now). He's also pretty easy to google. He is quite active in the forums, but just left to head north, cameras in hand, to the Oregon Country Fair, which is not your typical State/County fair. He won't be heard from till Tuesday or so. My name, btw, gets shortened to DK... much easier to spell then Dorothy, which is just the name my parents gave me... not the one I might prefer. Trouble is, I haven't come up with one I prefer enough to go through the hassle of changing it. <sigh> I'm DK to people around the forums anyway.
ozpeter Location: Australia Posts: 3200	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:50 am  Quote: Yes, you get the odd novelette and I'll own up to posting a few - in fact, my first one on the Adobe forum is already in place. From time to time it's seemed useful in a thread to post a chunk of what I know and what I've learned about a subject, because we've always viewed this forum as being a knowledgebase in itself, ranging quite widely over subjects which are likely to be of interest to those using the software. SteveG (amongst others) is not one to waste words, but often his posts get lengthy simply because of the comprehensiveness of the reply, and also because it's sometimes best to give a complete answer in one go rather than to provide some information, then some more, and so forth in response to a series of forseeable questions. Sure, it's possible to split the post into two or more chunks, but given that it appears to be a matter of policy rather than a built-in feature of the forum software, could further consideration to this aspect be given? Can it be varied for the Audition forum without affecting the others, if everyone else is happy on the others? Likewise the 30 minute limit - I can't think of any instance where unlimited editing time has been a problem here. - Ozpeter
pwhodges Location: United Kingdom Posts: 23	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 7:17 am  I recently came across this: http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html, which I reckon should be compulsory reading for all forum managers and moderators. Paul
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 7:18 am  Steve, rather then go back and forth, please just give it a shot for a period of time. There is good and bad in everything. This software has limitations of it's own. The Adobe software has it's own as well, but it also has good stuff this doesn't offer. I've worked in lots of different software, this is most similar to the (ack, can't even remember!!) Easyboard, maybe??, that I used to work in. It's also similar to the old Well Engaged (which was one that fell apart under the load we put to it). Someone mentioned InfoPop. My pay-me job is working in their OpenTopic software, and boy do I have grumbles about that, much of them related to the customization that the company I contract to has done with it. I haven't played in their free version, but this may also be similiar to that?!? The Adobe forums are in fairly customized WebX (version 4 for now, soon will be 5) software. John also works a lot in their support forums at http://webxharbor.com . That is a pretty special group of people also. Anyway, no matter what software you want to talk about you will find issues. I'd love to be able to take all the good features of all the software I've worked in and combine them to make THE excellent one!
pwhodges Location: United Kingdom Posts: 23	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 7:48 am  Well, it certainly looks as if v5 has some of the improvements that people would like (emoticons, for instance). Meanwhile, if just one single change could be made to the current setup, could it please, pretty please, be to make the editing window larger? 11x25 is just stupid; it's not even large on a 640x480 screen - and how many of Adobe's customers are that limited, given the nature of Adobe's software? I don't suppose it would even be very hard to write the script to make it vary according to actual screen resolution, though I can see it would be fiddly. Paul
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:15 am  Thanks for the link to the article, Paul, I agree with most of it and there is little that was truly new to me. I've learned a lot on my own over the years and I've intentionally exposed myself to a great many discussions about online technologies, whatever the term currently in vogue might be. I do get to a point of information overload tho so I do cut it off within reason. Right now I've been passively watching blogging from the sidelines, that seems to be a hot area for now, see where it goes in the future. Adobe faces the scale problems, obviously. We (as in the community) know who our core members are and they are recognized in various ways. My purpose here is to build the core group of folks for the Audition forum... but it's an easy task, since you're all already here!! Whee! No one is in all the Adobe forums, but there are hosts that spend time in the vast majority of them and are on call (per their chosen availability) to help out wherever the need arises. But, it is the core group of regulars that are the forums. They are the ones that truly set the look and feel of their space in the forums. Some are in many different forums, and some stick pretty tight to just one. You folks have found a good formula here for building a community of users, it's pretty much the same thing over there. For the edit window, I know that John has the ability to resize it and I thought that was an option in preferences as well... but I just looked and didn't find it. John is always a good egg about tweaking things to fit the best of all worlds. I just sorta somewhat remember the conversations around the size it is now, but not well enough to quote the specifices. It had a lot to do with the info surrounding the window and the fact that too many people still had tiny monitors with low resolution at the time. We do end up working in least common denominators at times like that... which makes me nuts, 'cause I like a lot of real-estate! I get the feeling, tho, that for this he'll ask that we work with it as it is until they do the version upgrade.
Bobbsy Location: United Kingdom Posts: 327	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:50 am  Hi Dorothy... I agree completely about the small size of the edit window...as it stands it's pretty silly. Right now the Adobe Board comes across much more as a corpororate "Help" forum where users post a simple query to support when then have a problem. Initial impressions are that it's not so suitable for a free flowing exchange of ideas...the user interface is just too clunky compared to the alternatives out there (I'm a moderator on a non audio vBulletin board for example). Ah well, as I said over there, if that's what Adobe want to impose on us I guess it's their call. However, I somehow don't see the boards there being the effective promotional tool that the Synt one has been... Bob
DorothyK Posts: 84	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:02 am  Assuming that new people come over to the Adobe forum because they are having some kind of problem with their software... or hardward... or the interface between the seat and the keyboard... they are less interested in social chit-chat than many/most of the regulars. Understandably. They want to ask their question, get an answer, and get back to work. That does need to be a primary focus for Adobe. That is probably the case here as well as there. What Adobe has done, in some cases, is to set up a social space for OT chit-chat. I have to give a warning to bring hip-waders, but if anyone dares (ok, so it's probably not as bad as all that...) they are welcome to find the Photoshop Lounge. Ack... all the people that have all the time in the world to hang out and yammer... me not one of them, for better or for worse.
Havoc Posts: 735	Posted - Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:57 am  Well, some time back I spend some time searching on the adobe forum (something connected with pdf's) and it was agony. Only thing worse are the creamware forums (these have been overhauled lately but I haven't been there since). As for dial-up being the excuse: it is a lame one! I'm on dial-up myself and a forum like this is no big deal. Just use something else than internet exploder and you're fine. You should do so anyway to keep the gremlins out. If you limit the size of attachments or use links, then there is no problem. But your expensive soft has to accomodate this. I get the idea it is more a way of not having to do any moderation, combined with a lot of frustrated users. That you need some hefty hardware to run it is the same lame excuse from a big corporation. The answer is decentralisation. If you just take the synth server, let it run as is, and apply some cosmetics to let it conform to adobe "corporate identity" then it is solved. But probably, the -no doubt- external IT guru's that give consultation about your websoft would be out of a job. And as they are probably related in one way or another to someone of the higher management (or he/she has a nice extra job with them) then that is of course no solution. I'm sorry you are getting such a hard time here, but this place is the habitat of some pretty down to earth ones that had already have to put up to much with corporate nonsense to swallow any more.
Bobbsy Location: United Kingdom