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Bob Allen Posts: 15	Posted - Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:14 pm  as you all know, there is NEVER enough voices to keep your station(s) fresh. I have 10-15 professional voices at my station and would LOVE to trade voices with YOUR station(s). I've put a compilation of my voices together. if you want more info and would like a copy of the compilation, e-mail me at boballen@goldcoastbroadcasting.com. there is ABSOLUTLEY no money involved. it's just that with MP3 files being SO easy to e-mail, this might be a solution for ALL of us. if we can all tap into each others talent, you would ALWAYS have a fresh sounding station. hope to hear feedback!!
auralstimulation prod Posts: 19	Posted - Tue Jun 12, 2001 4:33 pm  ummm bob better check their contracts because most air personalities have contracts specifing that they cannot be heard on another station regardless of the fact that it's not the same market. Not all personalities but most do. and yes I know some talents are voice tracked but usually it's for the same company. :-) _________________ Art Rooney Radio Imaging Producer, Mixshow DJ, and Mixshow Chart Reporter for DMA Magazine.
robertut Posts: 1	Posted - Sat Jun 23, 2001 11:58 pm  Hi! Cannot agree more. My voices are from Romania. Perhaps you would like to do once a spot with some parody about someone who has a little Central-European accent. p.o.box@email.ro
Chiefgunner Posts: 35	Posted - Mon Jun 25, 2001 8:08 pm  YOU HAVE TEN PROFESSIONAL VOICES TO CHOOSE FROM!!!! WOW!!!! If I had ten voices to choose from I'd be in production heaven. I'm used to working with 3 to 5 max! Myself, the P.D. and ummmm, well, whoever else I can drag up. You have a good Idea though.
Kim Thomassen Location: Denmark Posts: 13	Posted - Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:26 am  Quote: as you all know, there is NEVER enough voices to keep your station(s) fresh. I have 10-15 professional voices at my station and would LOVE to trade voices with YOUR station(s). I've put a compilation of my voices together. if you want more info and would like a copy of the compilation, e-mail me at boballen@goldcoastbroadcasting.com. there is ABSOLUTLEY no money involved. it's just that with MP3 files being SO easy to e-mail, this might be a solution for ALL of us. if we can all tap into each others talent, you would ALWAYS have a fresh sounding station. hope to hear feedback!!
Bob Allen Posts: 15	Posted - Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:11 am  Chiefgunner, thats JUST my point. I AM lucky to have so many really good voices, and I know what its like to only have 2, 3, or 4 voices doing ALL the spots. I'm offering my voices to you for a 1 to 1 barter for YOUR voices. your voices arnt burnt in my market and visa-versa. I'm suprised more people havnt contacted me. as for contractual problems, if you or your people have a problem with it , DONT DO IT! hey, its working VERY well with the 2 or 3 markets I work with now! click on my user profile and e-mail me!
radiokenny Posts: 164	Posted - Tue Mar 05, 2002 10:12 pm  I think this is a great idea. Small market stations would kill for a trade like this. He is obviously a very smart production director. You can never have too many voices.
Shadow Posts: 26	Posted - Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:15 am  Gidday Bob. COUNT ME IN, Im helping a new community station get off the ground. It would be great to have such a useful resource at ones fingertips. Mail me your compilation and I'll organise one similar from our team. Radio@dreamunltd.com
DanK Posts: 19	Posted - Tue Mar 12, 2002 4:45 pm  An Australian Female voice would fit some produciton ideas that I have been working on vswrdpk@hotmail.com WVIJ FM
Shadow Posts: 26	Posted - Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:45 pm  Yo DANK, I have access to Aussie talent, i'm working in Perth Western Australia. Send me more details, I'll be happy to help if I can. Radio@dreamunltd.com Edited by - shadow on 03/12/2002 11:46:05 PM
DanK Posts: 19	Posted - Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:31 am  Hello Shadow, Tried to reply, but got bounced because of a full mailbox. I am always listening for good image ideas from stations all over the country. Some of my new ideas include the need for a female Aussie voice. We are a non com in SW Florida on a shoestring budget, so my pockets are not deep at all. If these connections are open to a gratis or trade, this would be right up our alley. Thanks Dan WVIJ FM
Shadow Posts: 26	Posted - Wed Mar 13, 2002 9:11 am  Dank, Got your mail and answered it. Im looking into the "Full Mailbox" boggieman now. Hope we can help Each other out.
Bob Allen Posts: 15	Posted - Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:11 am  after almost a year, the thread is revived!!! AMAZING!. just a quick update. since the first post, almost 20 markets across the GLOBE have come on board and we're trading voices all over the world!!! as my GM says "usin the technology, baby!!"
DanK Posts: 19	Posted - Wed Mar 13, 2002 2:29 pm  Shadow, Got your private email A-OK but my reply was bounced again. Got another private email? Dan
Trengyeah Posts: 4	Posted - Sun Mar 17, 2002 4:48 am  More than happy to offer our services...young Australian male and female...some character voices available...give us a try. trent@aceradio.com.au
radiokenny Posts: 164	Posted - Sun Mar 17, 2002 10:25 am  And they gave me some crap about posting to old topics. It looks like this one has come back alive. lol Quote: " I was just adding some extra advice for people who review and read over old topics. No harm, No foul. " Radiokenny
Shadow Posts: 26	Posted - Mon Mar 18, 2002 11:37 am  Just an update: Dank now has Aussie voices to play with. We sent him a pile of Station Id's for his station, voiced by two of our girls and myself. Cant wait to see how he mixes them down!!
Talkmeup Location: USA Posts: 83	Posted - Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:44 pm  Whoa I forgot all about BOB!!! (sounds like an Keanu Reeves impression, don't it?) Well I can't speak for the rest of my crew but if any body needs a 24 american male voice, or over 20 different charecter voices email me talkmeup@hotmail.com and let me know... I can pretty much do anything ... Even Jar Jar binks (Sad part is that it sounds really frickin good....) J.D. _________________ I posted on this forum and all I got was this lousy t-shirt... J.D. Soutar Production Director 95 Triple X/WVMT AM 620 Burlington VT. talkmeup@hotmail.com
bobmc Posts: 5	Posted - Mon Mar 25, 2002 11:20 pm  Same goes for me... Samples available at www.bobmc.com Edited by - bobmc on 03/26/2002 01:01:53 AM _________________ Bob McKeehen www.bobmc.com
shel777 Posts: 14	Posted - Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:04 am  WONDERFUL IDEA! Swapping voices is truly a great idea! Won't make the Unions happy.. but then, what have Unions done for us except make things more expensive? BTW, BobMC's talents are exceptional. Go check out his demo.. and PAY THE GUY IF YOU HAVE TO! I don't know why the blue-chip companies haven't picked him up yet. Bob's of the Al Gates and Dude Walker genre. Not just a good voice.. but knowing how to use it! Shel Swartz wrko.org
Shadow Posts: 26	Posted - Thu Aug 08, 2002 1:56 am  Well, After a period in the dark I find myself back in the real radio world, and the first thing the Production guy wants to know is; CAN YA VOICE STUFF ? So I have pointed him here!! so is this thread still active?
BT Location: USA Posts: 10	Posted - Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:41 am  OOH! Someone should make a website where obligation free voices could come to trade with each other. Wouldn't that be ideal? Okay, someone else -- not me. *YAWN* BT _________________ BT Former Imaging Director in Austin, TX -- now freelancing! Hooray for freelancing.
gsloop Posts: 19	Posted - Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:22 am  it's funny how this thread keeps popping back up from time to time! I've had the pleasure of working with Bob and swapping voices and ideas with him for over a year now. If you're not using your chance to get some really good out-of-market talent to fresehen up the sound of spots on your station... YOU ARE MISSING OUT!!! _________________ Gary Looper Creative Director MacDonald Broadcasting
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:54 pm  We don't actually need any voices at the moment, but if any of you guys need UK-sounding voices, I have access to several good ones (M&F) who will probably do small amounts of stuff just for the hell of it! Also one or two quite genuine 'posh' accents... If you want to get in contact with me, post a message here - I've removed my email from the forum because I get too many mails that really should be here! _________________
VoodooRadio Location: USA Posts: 3971	Posted - Sat Dec 07, 2002 2:29 pm  I've got a "house full" of voices over here myself! _________________ I said Good Day! Voodoo
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Sat Dec 14, 2002 4:28 pm  With all due respect, trading voices is a horrible idea. Let's say I'm the afternoon guy at one of your clustered stations in, oh, let's say Eau Claire, Wisconsin. You're the production director, and you place a 60-second spot for Santa Fe Buick in front of me. My first question is, "where is the benefit for me?" My next question is, "Is there really a good reason why I would want to give away my signature asset? I mean, think about it. The radio station in Santa Fe sees a benefit because they get a time-buy from Santa Fe Buick. The salesman sees a benefit becuase he gets a commission on the buy. Santa Fe Buick sees a benefit because they didn't have to pay anything for a voiceover. Where's my payday in this scenario? No where. I'm standing here holding my johnson while everyone else makes a buck. Forget about it. If your station wants to enhance its production quality by adding voices, let it act like a big boy and write a check.
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Sat Dec 14, 2002 5:32 pm  I wouldn't go as far as to say 'horrible'... I can see it from your point of view, honest, but you have to remember that not everybody wants to use this for commercials, or on commercial stations - there is plenty of in-house production going on for which no money passes hands, where an approach like this can benefit everybody. And quite frankly, it will rely on co-operation from all parties involved. And if you don't want to co-operate, that's fine - nobody's forcing you to. But don't say it's a horrible idea, because it's not. _________________
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 6:52 am  Steve, not to sound uncivil, but in a public forum such as this, it's really not your place to tell me or anyone else which words to choose. But rather than get "my behind all up in the air" about it, I'll just take your directive as an awkward way of saying you disagree. The voluntary component of this thread's proposed voiceover cooperative is clear. However, my question remains. What benefit exists for the performer if his work travels to all corners of the globe, uncompensated? As one who makes his living ready copy, would that be a wise business decision for me to make? Why would I volunteer to give away my means of making a living? Therefore, if I make the decision not to participate in this cooperative, as has been clearly stated as my choice, that still leaves me competing in a marketplace where others are working for free. That, from my point-of-view, is a situation of real "horror" (if you will allow me to make this final point about my choice of words). You write, Quote: there is plenty of in-house production going on for which no money passes hands, where an approach like this can benefit everybody. I am unaware of the kind of situation where no money passes hands. What did you have in mind?
VoodooRadio Location: USA Posts: 3971	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 9:29 am  And now, we know exactly where you stand on participating. Of course that and 35 cents will get you a cup of McDonald's coffee. Ease up gunner..... I'm fairly sure that this small group of people are not going to interfere with the Big Coporation rivaling voice-over empire that you have built for yourself. _________________ I said Good Day! Voodoo
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 10:22 am  Quote: Steve, not to sound uncivil, but in a public forum such as this, it's really not your place to tell me or anyone else which words to choose. But rather than get "my behind all up in the air" about it, I'll just take your directive as an awkward way of saying you disagree. Listen, son. When I want your advice about that, I'll ask for it. Don't hold your breath. These forums exist almost entirely on a voluntary basis, and if people think that they can contribute something of value to threads, then they do, and the rest of us do our best to understand what they are saying. Often, we succeed, sometimes after a little prompting, and usually with the right words. But I'd hardly say that your response to this thread was a 'contribution' on that basis. Now, if you don't want to participate in something, then don't. That's your perogative. But there are hundreds, possibly thousands of small community stations running on a shoestring around the world who can gain in all sorts of ways from initiatives like this. The entire world does not revolve around advertising - most stations, even the overtly commercial ones, run public service promotions, campaigns and all sorts of things that staffers might voice as a part of their normal employment, and if you can trade voices on that basis, to introduce some variation, then I don't see how you can possibly describe it as 'horrible'. If spots turn up with a budget, then people get paid to voice them - this is not a problem. But if you come around here bad-mouthing perfectly reasonable initiatives, then don't expect to get a smooth ride. _________________
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 10:56 am  voodoo...your reaction suggests that my posts on the topic are limited to my personal standing in the face of competition from the handful of people contemplating (or actually participating) in this thread's voice cooperative, or was that just an attempt to get the last word (peppered with a little sarcasm for good measure)? Of course my life and career will go on, independent of the conclusions of the 10 or 12 or 23 people participating in this exchange. If you're suggesting that we limit the scope of this discussion to how it affects me, then there really isn't anything more that needs to be said. Personally, I don't think that topic would hold anyone's interest for too long. On the other hand, if this really is a forum for discussion, the idea of establishing and participating in a voice cooperative raises what I see as more universal questions--at it's core: Should one willingly and cheerfully give it away? At the end of the day, perhaps the answer is yes. Perhaps the value of what a VO performer brings to the table is so low that it may as well be free. On the other hand, if you believe what you do has value, then why on God's great, green earth would you be eager to do it uncompensated, especially once you understand the profit motive is involved in every step of the process, except as it applies to you. It just doesn't make any sense.
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 11:10 am  Steve...Let me get this straight. I can post as long as I agree with everything that's put out there in the public square, but if I'm inclined to take a stand against a notion with an opinion of my own, I should remain quiet. Is that correct?
VoodooRadio Location: USA Posts: 3971	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 12:38 pm  Actually Bulldog.... I DID take your initial post as your own personal stance on the matter (which you are MORE than entitled to)! Yes, my post was "peppered" with a little sarcasm, but you should read as it was intended... in humor! I think that a lot of folks here are not doing this "for a living", or place a different set of values on the matter altogether. If you do VO work for a living and you don't offer your services without price, then of course that is your perrogative. I personally don't have a problem with "tit for tat" trading at all. If one person "lends" a hand and the other returns the favor then.... it's all good!! _________________ I said Good Day! Voodoo
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 1:09 pm  bulldog wrote: Steve...Let me get this straight. I can post as long as I agree with everything that's put out there in the public square, but if I'm inclined to take a stand against a notion with an opinion of my own, I should remain quiet. Is that correct? Come on, that's not what I've suggested at all, and you know it. It's a percieved attitude thing. Let me demonstrate: With all due respect, trading voices is a horrible idea. I mean, think about it. Forget about it.[/list:f095bcea7d] 'With all due respect' is usually taken to mean 'I have no respect for your point of view. 'I mean, think about it' - you think we haven't thought about it? 'Forget it' Sounds like issuing instructions to me, not entering into a debate. On the other hand, and to be fair, the idea of establishing and participating in a voice cooperative raises what I see as more universal questions--at it's core: Should one willingly and cheerfully give it away? At the end of the day, perhaps the answer is yes. Perhaps the value of what a VO performer brings to the table is so low that it may as well be free.[/list:f095bcea7d] Is actually a far more reasonable way of introducing a voice of protest (which you are quite entitled to do) into the discussion. Quote: On the other hand, if you believe what you do has value, then why on God's great, green earth would you be eager to do it uncompensated, especially once you understand the profit motive is involved in every step of the process, except as it applies to you. It just doesn't make any sense. For a significant number of stations around the world, the profit motive doesn't enter into it at all. And another way of looking at it is to say that if you are actually being employed by a station, and one of the reasons that they are employing you is because of your voice, then your point of view might well be construed as wanting to be paid twice. But as I intimated before, if, as a freelancer, you feel that you cannot participate, that's up to you. But nobody is suggesting that anything is being given away for nothing - amongst people who are already being paid, or wish to participate anyway for the experience (yes, there are people who will do this!), there is no reason at all not to participate. They will not be doing you out of work. Not all exchanges can be valued in purely pecuniary terms. If this were the case, then the 20 or so participating organisations/individuals wouldn't be doing this. If it really is a horrible idea, then why are they participating in it? _________________
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 3:39 pm  Let's not beat this horse until it's unrecognizable, okay? If you will indulge me for a final summation of my opinion on this topic, you can agree or disagree. I'm not passing any laws here: 1. Giving a helping hand is always a good thing. 2. A voice cooperative is not the same as giving a helping hand. 3. I (you)(we)want to be regarded as professional. 4. Professionals are paid for their work. 5. Amateurs do it for free. 6. As a professional craftsman, it is in my best interest to do everything I can to keep value attached to my craft. 7. A cooperative that turns out spots for which no one is paid lessens the value attached to my (your)(our) craft. 8. If for no other reason than self-preservation, I (you)(we) have an obligation to keep, even elevate, value to what I (you)(we) do. 9. Where I come from "with all due respect" does not mean "I have no respect for your point of view." It means just the opposite. 10. "Horrible" is not a synonym for "it sucks." Horrible is an adjective that indicates "horror". If I wake up tomorrow and the world expects voice-overs to arrive for free, I will be filled with horror because I will, very quickly, have to find a new way to support my family and myself. 11. "I mean, think about it" is grammatically lazy. I would have been better served to write, "Consider this". 12. "Forget about it" is a Northeastern US expression that should have no more implied meaning than a period on a sentence. My apologies to the international reader. Believe or support what you want. As for being employed by a station, being paid once is fair, but fair works both ways. If I am expected to produce material for those outside of my direct employ, I expect to be compensated for it. If I don't attach value to what I do, why is it reasonable to expect it from others? My 2 cents.
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:45 pm  Quote: As for being employed by a station, being paid once is fair, but fair works both ways. If I am expected to produce material for those outside of my direct employ, I expect to be compensated for it. In a direct reciprocal deal, they will be voicing spots for you, and you for them. So there is no net gain or loss to you personally, and your station benefits from different voices. But there again, if you don't reckon that working for a station that is perhaps a little innovative in its presentation approach, (and perhaps gains more listeners, even) reflects on, and is a benefit to you, then so be it. But if you do this, and other people hear your voice and like it, and you get more work as a result, would that not be a direct benefit? I've often heard it said that you have to speculate to accumulate... So I'd say that even though you can't always measure these things in immediate $$$, there may well be a longer-term payback. But ultimately, it's your choice... _________________
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:19 am  Steve, I'm sure you're a good guy and an asset to your operation, but I can't let what you've written go unchallenged. Quote: In a direct reciprocal deal, they will be voicing spots for you, and you for them. So there is no net gain or loss to you personally, and your station benefits from different voices. Yes, there is a net loss for you. It starts with the understanding that some people are paid for their time and some people are paid for their talent. If what you're saying is that it took you no more time to produce this spot for the out-of-town operation, then yes, you are correct. What you do is not about a time-clock, however...in my opinion. It is about whatever unique talent and skill you bring that, at the end of the day, convinces listeners to respond to the information or emotion you have imparted. When your spot, produced with the talent, care and precision you uniquely bring, achieves increased awareness, sales, inquiries, or what-have-you, that's an accomplishment that you and the copywriter share. Your station pays you for your talent. To continue to operate successfuly, it charges its customers a premium based on your talent and those with whom you work. The other station to which you sent your unpaid work has also charged a premium based on your skill. The salesman at the other station gets a commission check based on your skill and talent. The business for whom you produced the spot achieves increased sales, awareness, traffic into the store, etc., based on your skill. And where was your check again? Early in my career, a mentoring friend of mine shared this concept, referred to above, that has always served me well: "Some of us are paid for our time...and some of us are paid for our talent. The question one has to ask oneself is, "Into which category do I fall?" If one labors for charity, one's country, or some grand and noble cause, then an uncompensated effort could be seen as a good thing. Apart fom that, it's going to have to be a compelling reason to justify giving it away. Call me nuts...it's just my opinion about the work we do.
mshultz Posts: 1	Posted - Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:24 am  There was a posting a while ago about this whole mess with the following line, and I'm not sure it got fully addressed: "I am unaware of the kind of situation where no money passes hands. What did you have in mind?" The radio station where I work is exactly this kind of situation. We're a student-run radio station (KTRU Houston) operating on the Rice University campus with close to a hundred different volunteer DJ's (from both the university and the general Houston community) on the air over the course of a typical week. I'm reasonably sure that there are countless other stations with exactly this kind of arrangement. Like every other DJ at the station, I work there because it's fun, not because we expect any compenstation for it. I willingly spend hours outside the studio most of the time preparing for my weekly slot on contemporary classical music. I think voice-swapping is a cool idea- especially for small things like a station's legal ID's... We have a little black CD wallet at KTRU with a few legal ID's from famous people, along with PSA's done by celebrity figures.... I bet most people at KTRU wouldn't mind having their voices swapped around the world, especially for station ID's (but I'm _not_ any kind of station official or representative!!!), and I'm guessing that people at lots of other similar non-commercial stations would feel the same way. Just my thoughts...
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:03 am  Quote: The radio station where I work is exactly this kind of situation. We're a student-run radio station (KTRU Houston) operating on the Rice University campus with close to a hundred different volunteer DJ's (from both the university and the general Houston community) on the air over the course of a typical week. I'm reasonably sure that there are countless other stations with exactly this kind of arrangement. mshultz...Your situation is a horse of a different color altogether. My first radio experience was in college and it was just as you describe. Sometimes, it seemed like I lived in the place. Good for you. It sounds like you're having fun. Have at it. My comments back and forth here are limited to the professional environment. Fun is allowed there, too, by the way.
gsloop Posts: 19	Posted - Tue Dec 17, 2002 9:21 am  lets see.... what's in it for YOU... the next time YOUR station has a client that you really want to impress...YOUR station could use the same exact technique to get TALENTED OUT OF MARKET voices FREE. That's where YOUR bucks come from. And that's why it's called TRADING. Of course, you can keep cranking out spot with the same old voices, while the sations across the street starts bringing in new voices and better sounding productions and your clients start turning to them for creative. Your choice, really. _________________ Gary Looper Creative Director MacDonald Broadcasting
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:42 am  Quote: the next time YOUR station has a client that you really want to impress...YOUR station could use the same exact technique to get TALENTED OUT OF MARKET voices FREE. That's where YOUR bucks come from. And that's why it's called TRADING. ...all true and well said...from the perspective of your station's owners. You, I'm sorry--the owners, will be able to get fresh, new, uncompensated voices to perform toward your station's bottom line. It's really a great coup d'etat! Where do YOUR bucks come from again? Are you paid because of the kindness and generosity of those who bring in advertising revenue, or do they bring in advertising revenue because YOU might actually have something to do with generating an audience, or more to the point of this thread, through a measure of your talent and skill at generating a response for advertisers through your production. I am absolutely going to give you credit for knowing better than I of YOUR talent and creative contributions to the business. And finally, as you point out, you are trading. That means YOU are obligated to send out YOUR work in reciprocity....which leads back to the matter of being uncompensated again. Whew, this dog is really chasing his tail, isn't he?
Cal Location: USA Posts: 577	Posted - Tue Dec 17, 2002 12:37 pm  Bulldog, as an outsider (I'm not in radio) i find it very peculiar, in reading this highly entertaining thread, that you jumped in with a response as though you were ordered by forces outside yourself to give up your living and work for free. I don't see anywhere in the initial posts where anyone was addressing you. I see, by some of the replies, where some find this idea of trading a wonderful idea... Perhaps their circumstances make this method palatable and useful, and profitable in a way not meant for you and your situation. Your first reply that began, "With all due respect...", lacked it... absolutely. _________________ Cal
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:56 pm  Quote: Your first reply that began, "With all due respect...", lacked it... absolutely. Allow me then to complete the sentence. "With all due respect...for the forgone and unnecessarily articulated concept that each reader is democratically free to come to his or her own conclusion about this or any other topic in this or in any other public forum, and keeping in mind that that which the reader is about to read is just one man's opinion, about which, the reader being perfectly capable, has no obligation to join......." Your absolute is less than that. You are wrong. Quote: ...you jumped in with a response as though you were ordered by forces outside yourself to give up your living and work for free. I don't see anywhere in the initial posts where anyone was addressing you. I'm not sure I follow you. Are you suggesting that one needs to be addressed and invited personally to participate in this forum? If not that, then what? If you've assumed I am a freelancer and a freelancer only, then you are wrong again. I have a thirty-year history in radio and nearly that much, concurrently, in freelancing. Indulging for the moment that I have to present credentials before I am allowed to participate, that level of experience should, I think, free me to have an opinion. Again, I am not attempting to pass laws on this subject. Every word I've written represents my opinion and a plea for due diligence on cooperatives. I assume each reader comes to the forum with an innate ability to draw his own conclusions. I appear before this group only to make the case that cooperatives, were they to become pervasive to a point well beyond the modest proposals of this group, operate counter to the best interests of those who may be praising them now. (Again...just my opinion!) It is a simple notion really. Free lessens value. A cooperative of "free" makes it an easier decision to fire more and hire less. As the old saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for because you just may get it." I really don't think I can add anymore to my position to make it any clearer. If you or others want to attack me for participating, or writing what I've written as an uninvited guest, or you don't like my looks (based on what you may have it in your mind that I look like), or with any and all ad hominem, have at it.
Cal Location: USA Posts: 577	Posted - Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:39 pm  bulldog wrote: With all due respect, trading voices is a horrible idea. Let's say I'm the afternoon guy at one of your clustered stations in, oh, let's say Eau Claire, Wisconsin. You're the production director, and you place a 60-second spot for Santa Fe Buick in front of me. My first question is, "where is the benefit for me?" My next question is, "Is there really a good reason why I would want to give away my signature asset? I mean, think about it. The radio station in Santa Fe sees a benefit because they get a time-buy from Santa Fe Buick. The salesman sees a benefit becuase he gets a commission on the buy. Santa Fe Buick sees a benefit because they didn't have to pay anything for a voiceover. Where's my payday in this scenario? No where. I'm standing here holding my johnson while everyone else makes a buck. Forget about it. If your station wants to enhance its production quality by adding voices, let it act like a big boy and write a check. Well, bulldog... those who want or have a need to swap or trade voices are perfectly happy to do so with others willing. You just happened to introduce an element that didn't fit the thread's intent. And I.... jumped on it. (Sorry for being the cop on the beat.) For sure, your entitlement to opinion isn't in question. But I'm wondering, "Why load these people up with a point of view they don't care about?" They're all radio people and can decide whether or not to participate in the concept of sharing/trading/swapping. With the thread not being about merits nor horrors nor financial benefits, but about "Who wants to share?", an opinion about the *best* way to share voices would certainly fit and help. Your point of view is not wrong, just not applicable to those who find benefit of a different kind. You can see by the words in your reply, which I've bolded, that your interests, which are valid, are not germaine to the thread nor consistent with the spirit of those interested in what this thread discusses. I can see where your concern lies: (in your scenario) you're expected to do a voiceover for no (extra) pay. Well, I'd feel that way, too, in that circumstance, unless that was a reasonable and expected part of the job. Over in the Cool Edit forum we often hear from a gentleman who does recording for local people in the town where he lives. He sometimes gets paid, sometimes gets little... sometimes, nothing -- just depends, and that's the way he wants it to be -- it's his hobby. But he is no threat to studios that do recording for a living. And no one who makes their living off Cool Edit and recording has ever chastised him in the forum for being benevolent, and we freely help him on any question he asks. So, I don't mean this to be a personal affront. I realize that your opinion comes from your desire to preserve and maintain a livelihood. That i have no problem understanding. And may you do well, and prosper. _________________ Cal
bobmc Posts: 5	Posted - Wed Dec 18, 2002 3:57 am  Holy smokes! Well if this thread hasn't kept me up way past my bedtime! I have maybe a cent-and-a-half's worth to throw in here, then I'll shut up. For owners, GM's, PD's and other administrators, trading voices would certainly be quite the business. Afterall, the administration would quite naturally (and rightly so) see themselves as the "owners" of the voices that work at their mics, and that those voices they "owned" would and should be at their beck and call. If these owners/administrators thought for all the reasons contained in this thread that they could benefit from trading voices with other stations, then they have the right to do that. In fact when you look at this thread, it seems more representative of those who CONTROL (read OWN) the voices than the voices themselves. On the other hand, you have the freelancers. Funny bunch, the freelancers...all mumbo jumbo with union versus non-union and rates that are all over the place in any given market. But one thing does remain constant with the freelancers; maintaining some semblance of cash value for their services is absolutely where it's at. There's a whole lot of infighting about how much sessions and usage are worth, but they all agree that it's worth at least some dead presidents. Now, from what I can gather from this thread, bulldog is currently on the air with a radio station AND has the opportunity (blessed be his employer!) to pursue freelance work. I speak from experience when I say not all employers are open to the idea of their on-air staff doing freelance VO's. In fact, one former employer of mine - when I asked him about doing this very thing - said, "Not if you want your job." Obviously, my employer owned my voice, as it pertained to my own desire to remain gainfully employed by that particular broadcast company. Bulldog's points are absolutely valid. That he brought them into this thread...well, sounds like all those voice "owners" who are so giddy about trading their voices might have gotten the freelance half of his hackles up a bit. As for me. I'm a fulltime freelancer. Peaks and valleys, you know. I'm all about gettin' paid. But after a couple of failed startups - real businesses with an office that I drove to and signage and employees and all that - I understand the business owner much better than I used to. If I have taken the substantial risk of purchasing/leasing equipment, hiring employees, paying for advertising, dealing with permits and taxes and fees and trying to cover the nut...and then I see an opportunity to improve the quality of my product by simply increasing production a bit to cover the soft cost of that improvement, I'm all over it. There's no fault in that. I think bulldog's biggest problem is the fruition of that old capitalist idiom...those with the money (read "owners") are the ones who have the best chance of keeping the money. It's always tougher on the little guy. I know, cuz I'm one of 'em and I wouldn't have it any other way. OK, I could really go for fame and fortune, but, until then, it's way past my bedtime. _________________ Bob McKeehen www.bobmc.com
post78 Location: USA Posts: 2887	Posted - Wed Dec 18, 2002 4:34 am  Quote: For sure, your entitlement to opinion isn't in question. But I'm wondering, "Why load these people up with a point of view they don't care about?" They're all radio people and can decide whether or not to participate in the concept of sharing/trading/swapping. Well, I think that Bulldog is just expressing a point of view that should be made aware by those participating in this exchange. He has very valid points, as does Steve, and since most here are agreeing with the point of view that was originally laid out, I think that Bulldog's words should be read quite carefully. Like he said, it's not the law, and after reading you can ignore it, but they're points that should be at least known before making these types of decisions, which could ultimately effect your entire career. Personally, I like the idea of trade. It's a great way to make some references and perhaps a few friends in high places, but once you have that I think it's time to sell. _________________ Answer = 1. Probably.
bulldog Location: USA Posts: 14	Posted - Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:26 am  I keep telling myself, “Let it rest. You’ve made your case. Walk away and let all come to their own conclusions.” I’m sorry. I can’t help myself! I’m back again. I hear what’s being said. What difference does it make if a handful of people on this board want to start a spot exchange program and it makes them happy, or it accommodates a production need they may have at their station. I understand that position. Every jock wants his station to shine. If a voice exchange cooperative means hearing one pro after another in his station’s stopsets, isn’t that a good thing? Doesn’t that give his station a competitive advantage over his rival across town that still has its not-so-good overnight guy reading copy in their stopsets? If the radio universe were only as big as one market, I would agree. Have at it. Struggle. Fight the good fight. Work hard and reward yourself with higher ratings. Beat your competitor to a pulp. After all, higher ratings mean more people in the building are happy, especially your boss. And when he’s happy with higher ratings, he’s less likely to start looking around for replacements, right? And that protects your position. So, Bulldog, why don’t you just give it a rest and leave things alone? The reason I warn against voice cooperatives springs from a 40-year-old scientific principle known as the “Butterfly Effect”. In the early 60’s, Edward Lorenz was an MIT mathematician and meteorologist who loved to study weather. Computers were new then and Lorenz saw an opportunity to use them to construct a mathematical model of the weather. He entered the first set of differential equations that represented changes in temperature, pressure, wind velocity, etc., and the computer did its thing, producing a weather pattern for the coming months. Later, wanting to duplicate his computer run, but to save time, he entered the data from a point in the middle of the previous run, as it appeared from the data printouts. At first, the running model duplicated the results from the first run, but then, unexpectedly, began to wildly diverge until it didn’t resemble the first run at all. Dumbfounded and upon closer examination, Lorenz found that as he entered the data into the second run from the first run, he rounded one number from .506127 to just three digits, .506. At first, that small change in variables produced no noticeable change at all. Later, though, the result was dramatically different. His observation led to the conclusion that very simple or small systems and events can cause very complex behaviors or events, an idea known as “Sensitive Dependence on Initial Conditions”. The idea went on to be illustrated in a situation where we find a butterfly flapping its wings in the Amazon River Basin, introducing a puff of wind that represents the smallest of small variables into the weather pattern, but one, that ultimately, results in a tornado off the Texas coast…The Butterfly Effect! You’re a jock at a small station in market #135. You want your station to sound better and you want to look good for the powers that be. You initiate a voice exchange network with some other guys in 2 or 3 different markets. Your station’s top salesman places a production order for a local florist in town. You send the copy to one of the participants in the coop and it comes back sounding great. The salesman flips when he hears it. He slaps you on the back and congratulates you for being so innovative. He tells the GM what you’ve done. You get recognized at the next staff meeting for introducing a process that is going to help the station go to Number One! You’re a hero and you just improved your standing among the bosses. Your station’s stopsets sound way better than your competitors. Down the road, the same salesman leaves for a new job in market 25. There’s a big celebratory party for him when he leaves. At his new job, wanting to prove to his new bosses they made a good decision to hire him, he introduces the voice exchange process into that station. It flourishes there, too. A few months later, the GM of that station leaves for a big job as Director of National Cool Stuff for Clear Channel Broadcasting. Being a smart guy, and looking for ways to cut costs and maximize profits for his new bosses, he institutes the voice cooperative concept, not just for spots back and forth, but for entire shows. One jock, from his basement, in an 8-hour day, can produce voice tracks for 5 different shows. Multiply that by a bunch of different jocks doing the same thing and he can eliminate scores of jocks from the payroll and save the company thousands and thousands of dollars. “Ain’t technology great,” he says to himself. Meanwhile, back in Market #135, your owner is looking around for ways he can cut costs and maximize his profits, too. He goes to a presentation at the NAB where he discovers an innovative new service that he can subscribe to where, for a monthly fee that is just a fraction of what his jock payroll is now, he can have big-market-sounding pro’s providing the content for shows AND producing his spots. He signs a contract with the service, returns to his station and gives the staff the bad news. Maybe he keeps one jock as a system operator to make sure everything runs smoothly…The Butterfly Effect! Beneath the surface of what appears to be a small, insignificant process among like-minded participants who have nothing but good intentions, can produce dramatic changes to the existing dynamic. Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. That’s it. That’s all. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year! Have a wonderful life filled with nothing but happiness and good fortune. You’ve been a great crowd and don’t forget your waitresses. Bulldog.
Cal Location: USA Posts: 577	Posted - Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:59 am  ... and yet another Cool Edit junkie (me) who has nothing to do with radio except listening, and who occasionally wonders along the audio highway how many of the local spots he's hearing were done with CE, has wandered into the Radio Forum and gotten some insight into some of what goes on behind the radio dial's digital frequency readouts and proudly sung station IDs. I commend you bulldog for sticking around and not using your sayonara to stick it "to" -- though I can tell, times past, you may have had plenty of reasons you'd like to, maybe did on occasion, and also had it stuck to you from time to time... a warrior proud of his trade with scars and medals to show. Hang around. _________________ Cal
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Wed Dec 18, 2002 3:51 pm  Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee... I will freely admit to looking at this perhaps a little more from a station management perspective, but not entirely. The butterfly effect story is great, but... Quote: He goes to a presentation at the NAB where he discovers an innovative new service that he can subscribe to where, for a monthly fee that is just a fraction of what his jock payroll is now, he can have big-market-sounding pro’s providing the content for shows AND producing his spots. So where do all the jocks on this new service come from? They have to be in the system, don't they? And if the total amount of talk going out isn't going to change, and we're not going to have global syndication, then all these jocks will still have to be employed somewhere... And I can't see this system working too well for phone-ins, either. Also, let's face it, this is never going to work in a global market. Nobody's talking about stations losing their identities here - we are talking small-scale exchanges for PSAs and the like. One of the significant points about the butterfly effect and chaos theory is that the ultimate result is unpredictable from the causal point - this is why weather prediction is so imprecise, and needs constantly updating. You could make a reasonable assertion that having a predicted outcome from an experiment of this nature is in fact no more than scaremongering. The moment that money starts to change hands, this particular venture will have merely become contact-swapping, which is an allowable activity anyway, I believe... and it is precisely this lack of a financial dimension that will keep this a small undertaking, but potentially valuable for the participants. But it could be that we're seeing the start of this sort of globalisation, anyway. In the UK we have very few telephone call-handling centres now, because they are all migrating to India (it's much cheaper to employ Indian staff at 3 times the rate that anybody else locally will pay them, because this is still much, much cheaper than the cost of international calls and UK operators on a minimum wage!) How they get away with this and fool a lot of people is another story altogether, but they do... And it could be only a matter of time before the same thing starts to happen with radio - the potential is there now. This might be the sort of thing that would make you quite glad to be in a voice-swapping scheme that eventually went commercial. At least you might get some work! Now I'm not suggesting that it will go like this at all - but for any given scenario, there is always another way to look at it, I think. _________________
nhaukap Location: USA Posts: 130	Posted - Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:09 pm  I think this is easily the most thought provoking thread we've had here in the Radio forum in quite some time. As someone working at a small station geographically very close to a large market, the idea of "trading" voices with other stations like my own for the simple sort of production that's generally needed at my level is an appealing one. But looking at it from the voiceover artist's perspective, I have absolutely no problem agreeing with everything Bulldog has said. For someone not in radio - or more specifically, someone who doesn't depend upon their voiceover talents for their livlihood - perhaps it's not easy to understand. Voice trading may help the station as an entity by bringing in new voices; it does not help the individual voiceover artist for all the reasons that Bulldog has articulated. SteveG wrote: So where do all the jocks on this new service come from? They have to be in the system, don't they? And if the total amount of talk going out isn't going to change, and we're not going to have global syndication, then all these jocks will still have to be employed somewhere... .... But it could be that we're seeing the start of this sort of globalisation, anyway. In the UK we have very few telephone call-handling centres now, because they are all migrating to India (it's much cheaper to employ Indian staff at 3 times the rate that anybody else locally will pay them, because this is still much, much cheaper than the cost of international calls and UK operators on a minimum wage!) How they get away with this and fool a lot of people is another story altogether, but they do... And it could be only a matter of time before the same thing starts to happen with radio - the potential is there now. This might be the sort of thing that would make you quite glad to be in a voice-swapping scheme that eventually went commercial. At least you might get some work! Steve, make no mistake: this is happening in radio right now, and it is certianly the not benefitting jocks who are losing their jobs to voicetracking. Technology has enabled one jock to do the work of 5, corporate radio has embraced this technology as a cost cutting measure, and the other 4 jocks are now out looking for work. Multiply that by a few hundred radio stations nationwide (speaking of the US here), and you have hundreds of jocks being put out of work by voicetracking. So yeah, you're right - the total amount of talk going out hasn't changed...but the number of people doing the talking has decreased dramatically.
SteveG Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695	Posted - Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:53 pm  Quote: Steve, make no mistake: this is happening in radio right now, and it is certianly the not benefitting jocks who are losing their jobs to voicetracking. Technology has enabled one jock to do the work of 5, corporate radio has embraced this technology as a cost cutting measure, and the other 4 jocks are now out looking for work. Multiply that by a few hundred radio stations nationwide (speaking of the US here), and you have hundreds of jocks being put out of work by voicetracking. So yeah, you're right - the total amount of talk going out hasn't changed...but the number of people doing the talking has decreased dramatically. -nhaukap I had a depressing feeling in the back of my mind that this might be true in the (relatively deregulated) USA. It certainly puts bulldog's position into some sort of perspective, and you will recall that I did say that I had some sympathy for this anyway, which I genuinely do. Things are not so bad in the UK, because a relatively enlightened radio authority (we are pretty regulated here!) actually dissaproves quite strongly of any sort of station automation at all, unless it is for overnight holds, and even then they don't actually approve of it. It's quite clear that for any of the positive values I mentioned to be worth it, due account has to be taken of bulldog's perspective, and it is also clear that this will vary in different countries and markets. So yes, his contribution is valuable, (as is everybody's, I think) precisely because it throws things into perspective, and that certainly wasn't here before! It would be interesting to hear what any of the 20 or so 'swappers' have to say on the subject... _________________
Talkmeup Location: USA Posts: 83	Posted - Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:26 am  I just want to say that I love everybody...and dammit I like me... :D I'm gonna go back to sticking pencils in the ceiling now... J.D. _________________ I posted on this forum and all I got was this lousy t-shirt... J.D. Soutar Production Director 95 Triple X/WVMT AM 620 Burlington VT. talkmeup@hotmail.com
Hamish B Posts: 6	Posted - Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:33 am  count me in too for this www.urbanradio.co.uk