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BÜDD · Posts: 8

Hi everyone,
I've been reading around this forum since May when I bought CE2K & the audio cleann up plug-in, and I must say you folks have helped me out more than once. Anyway, I have a problem I was hoping someone could help me with. When I record with CE I use 32\96 to do all my cleaning and normalizing, then I convert to 16\44, burn it on a Cd, play it on on the player in my stereo system, (sounds great) then I take it to my car CD player and IT SOUNDS LIKE BAD RADIO RECEPTION! Anybody know why? I'm at My wits end. I'll tell you what I have & what I've done----
AMD Athlon Classic 650
128MB RAM
ATI Rage Fury 32MB
Linksys NIC
& an M-Adudio Audiophile 24\96 (this is what I've been using with CE to record)

It's not the burner, I bought a new one, as a matter of fact the new one is better, cause the old one made the cd unplayable in my car (agian, the cd was fine in my home rig), with the new burner it just sounds bad. It's not the car unit either, cause it plays the same way in my wife's car(BAD)and in my brothers old (1987) CD player. Every other player I have plays the disk just fine! It's not the blank media I'm using, cause if I make a copy of a production CD It plays fine in all the before mentioned CD players. I have also tried using the burner in my other computer, with different software (I'v been using EZCD 4 , but I'm trying out CDRWIN & I think I'm gonna buy it) and I still get that fuzzy crackly sound on discs that were made with CE.

I think it's the sound card, but I have a few more things I wanna try before I go M-audio with this problem. I can't even see why it would even be the sound card. While Cleaning up the wav files and all that, I never here anything like it. HEK, If I didn't have a few crappy CD players I might not even know there was a problem. I'd also like to say that the CD deck in my wifes car is only a month old, and the one in my car is under 2 years old. They're both Sony decks if that means anything.

Anyway It's almost 3AM and my brain hurts. I just thought I'd throw this out there and see if anyone could help. I might be missing something real small and stupid after all(wouldn't be the first time).

Thanks,
BÜDD

jdechant · Posts: 58

I'm not sure but it might be CDRWIN....

I've been usings CDRWIN to try to burn CD's and all it has been giving me are coasters...

I wanted to use CDRWIN because it allows you to customize the disks TOC(Table of Contents), which I want to do... but when I use it to burn a CD... and i try to play it back they first 3 seconds or so of the 1st track are good, but then the entire rest of the CD is nothing but noise... like the noise you get when a radio station doesn't some in, or the tv goes out... i dunno if its white, pink, or brown noise... but anyways...

Does anybody know of any other burning software that enables you to have control over the disks TOC...

I am using an internal Plextor PlexWriter 16x burner.. CDRWIN claims to support it... but so far no go... Disks burn fine in EZCD4 but I want control of the TOC and EZCD4 doesn't allow it to be edited...

so if anybody knows of any other burning software that enables you to have control over the disks TOC... please let me know...

Josh

p.s.. sorry this kinda goes off topic of CEP or CE2K...

Edited by - jdechant on 08/02/2001 08:17:40 AM

BÜDD · Posts: 8

jdechant,

CDRWIN is not the the problem, as a matter of fact I rather like the way it works, as compared to EZCD which is the software I was using when this problem crept up. I was, and still am just trying to isolate The problem. Does'nt Matter which software I use, I've got the same static in the backround.

As far as your problem goes, I dunno, maybe you downloaded a corrupted program or something. CDRWIN works well for me so far, except for my prexisting nightmare of course, and It does'nt have all the USELESS JUNK with it. It realy seems to give you everything you need and nothin' ya don't, IMO. HEK, Their web site doesn't even claim to support my new burnner(LITE-ON 12x10x32x-I'm Cheap Smile

......) , but the software itself recoganized the burner and works with
it just fine.
GOOD LUCK.

Thanks,
BÜDD

clintfan · Location: USA Posts: 455

I agree with Budd, it's probably not CDRWIN. Are you both using branded CDR blanks, or an off-brand generic blank? You are using CDR's, right-- not CDRW's? What burn speed are you using? Did CDRWIN *ever* work for you both? And for how long?

Jdechant, how did you create your CDRWIN cuelist? I'm concerned about the 3-second deal... if you want to post your cuelist back, I'd like to take a look at it later, in case there's a problem there.

Budd, many demo packages are self-limiting, and beyond the limit they do things like inject beeps into your output. I thought I remembered that the CDRWIN demo was only good for 2 burns at 1X. But I don't know what the demo behavior would be if you go beyond 2 burns... static, maybe? Just a thought.

-clintfan

BÜDD · Posts: 8

clintfan,

I'm using TDK 700MB, they're recomended by both of my burners. The problem still occured even with 650MB discs. And as I said before, Doing a disc-to-disc copy turns out just fine. It's only when I burn from a WAV source with either burning software in 2 different computers. As far as the limits of CDRWIN demo you're right about it being 1x but there is no limit to how many time I can burn. I'll be buying it next week or so, but until then I'm gonna try using the onboard sound that came with the mainboard(Asus K7M). It'll have to wait untill tomorrow however, as I have to get my BÜTT to work.

Talk at ya later.

Thanks,
BÜDD

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA Posts: 5124

Hello Budd. Well, my main question would be...what type of monitoring system are you using when you do the cleanup? PC Speakers? And, what type of home stereo are we talking about? Sounds to me like it's more of an issue with over/under processing that a problem with the actual burn of the CD, unless of course you're experiencing skipping, dropouts, loud bursts, that sort of thing.

Home stereos, as well as PC Speakers, can be very deceptive in terms of reproducing audio, particularly if you have any sort of Dolby, Pro Logic, Surround, Expand, Stereo Width kinda stuff involved.

---Syntrillium, M.D.

Graeme · Member Location: Spain Posts: 4663

Budd, I'm with Syntrillium on this one - your problem is almost certainly down to the way you are monitoring this stuff and has nothing to do with the computer hardware or software.

Give us a few details of the system and we can probably point you in the right direction.

beetle · Location: USA Posts: 2591

Just to make sure you get the message I will have to agree with Graeme and Syntrilium. Your problrm has NOTHING to do with the burner, the burning software ior the discs at all. It is your monitoring system or your car player.

SteveG · Location: United Kingdom Posts: 6695

Hi BÜDD

All CD writers do a power check in the pre-groove on every CD-R they write to establish the correct power for the blank that's being used. Unless you have a faulty CD-writer, this won't be the problem. Like everybody is telling you, check out the monitoring!

And what exactly are you trying to change in the TOC? Just interested...

Steve

jdechant · Posts: 58

clintfan,

I am convinced that on my system, CDRWIN is the problem...

CDRWIN generates its own cuelists and uses these to record the disks... you can save them and add in additional indexes, etc, etc... I have tried just burning a disc using CDRWIN's generated cue list and nothing but static...

I can use Easy CD Creator 4 and it work just fine... also I tried to burn a data disk with CDRWIN and that did not work either... the CDROM drives(both of them) saw no disk in the drive after burning...

My drives are as follows:
1. Plextor PlexWriter 16/10/40 A -- thats 16x burning -- running as master
2. Creative Labs 52x CDROM running as slave

I use the following CDR media (which is recommended by Plextor):
Taiyo Yuden 74minute 16x silver CDR's...
If my media is the problem then we are all in trouble because Taiyo Yuden only invented CDR...

Also a new interesting glitch... when I attempt to burn a disk in CDRWIN, it burns the disk, and then after it is done burning the disk, it decides it is a good idea to disconnect/unplug both of my CD drives and I have to restart my machine a couple of time to get it to re-install both drives...

CDRWIN is SUPPOSED to work in Windows 2000, well it runs, but apparently it does not work... I have the newest ASPI layer installed as well...

Please I just need the name of a program that will work with Windows 2000 and allows the editing of cuesheets or the disks TOC...

Josh

P.s. Anyone else that has had similar problems with CDRWIN in Windows 2000 and has found a solution, please let me know... thanks

Edited by - jdechant on 08/02/2001 5:24:24 PM

clintfan · Location: USA Posts: 455

Hi jdechant.

Well, I didn't see your cue list, but it doesn't sound like that's your problem. I use CDRWIN a lot, and have never had this problem. Yet. But I'm using different CD Writer hardware, an older HP8100i (internal, basically a Sony I think), and Win98SE (not 2000).

I'm still new to all of this myself, but here are some more thoughts for you (in no specific order):

1. Maybe a dumb question, but you are burning a 16-bit, 44.1KHz PCM Wave file, right? Normally CDRWIN would quit if it wasn't this format, but maybe if the data weren't compatibly packed/ dithered...? What process & tool did you use to prepare the file? And is there just one file, or several? (I always have only done one giant file holding all the tracks.)

2. I see the 16/10/40 is internal (only), and is IDE. I know your CD-ROM is supposed to be slave, but I've had tape backup devices that screwed up unless they had their own private IDE bus. Can you try disconnecting your slave CD-ROM? Does the problem go away?

3. I also see your 16/10/40 is Burn-Proof, so it's not a straight underrun problem. But maybe you need to adjust some buffer settings in CDRWIN to work well with such a device (mine isn't, so I log everything off the PC when I'm burning). Did you change any of the CDRWIN buffer and cache settings from their defaults? Mine is using the defaults, which seem to be Caching: enabled, 2MB buffer, 85/15% tratio, normal CPU priority; and ASPI 64K max buffer & using the "MS/Adaptec ASPI drivers".

4. Do I take "16X" to mean that is the speed you are burning at? Does your problem still occur if you burn at, say, 2X? There have historically been problems with higher burn speeds, and numerous debates about that as well. But since you're having problems, I suggest trying a slower burn rate. Guess I'm still using 1X.

5. Even though Win2000's been out for a while, I keep hearing on these forums that there are still very few stable Win2000 drivers out there, no matter what your device. The device disconnect certainly leads me to suspect this. CDRWIN is probably just making a call to close the device, the same call it would make to any device. But perhaps your device driver is mishandling this, and trashing the whoe connection. No way you should have to logically reinstall the device after each use! Do you have the latest Plextor drivers for your burner? And check your ASPI driver version against Goldenhawks's website, they have them for Win2000.

6. The fact you have to reboot multiple times to get it to reinstall at all, could point to a more serious hardware problem, like a hardware conflict. I had that at work, with a light-pen adapter card: can you say "six reboots"? Sorry, I'm just a slightly experienced CDRWIN user, but there's plenty of folks good with hardware-- not to snub Syntrillium at all, but try posting this issue to the PC OS column over at http://www.audioforums.com .

7. Finally, I don't know to what extent DirectX matters to CD burning, but it does seem pretty central to PC audio, so you could check what version of that you have. Latest I think is 8.0a but I have no idea how it plays with Win2000.

You could try contacting Goldenhawk for support, but I'll bet it turns out it's not CDRWIN at all, but something about your hardware or the drivers on your Win2000. Maybe the other forum can help you, and somebody will jump in and say "hey just do thus- and- such"; I hope it works out that way for you.

Myself, I'll stick with CDRWIN. Still learning the neat tricks it allows you to play. Like today after studying a Tom Petty album. Sorry I couldn't be of more help on your static. Maybe I still can help somehow.

-clintfan

jdechant · Posts: 58

Clintfan,

I'll try to contact GoldenHawk tomorrow... but i still think it is CDRWIN...

I downloaded the demo for Nero 5.5 to see if it worked and it worked beautifully at 16x...

With CDRWIN, I ran many tests... burning one file, burning many... burning wav file... burning mp3 files.. all the same result...

I've ran it with the Plextor on its own IDE channel... same thing...

I also downloaded fireburner, which allows you to import cue files... I burned with it and it started to burn and did the first track but then screwed up and just stopped burning... but the audio was there...

I like nero... it allows you to put in extra indexes... but you can't change index 01 or add an index 00... bummer...

Also, one thing I've noticed that CDRWIN doesn't do (or at least doesn't show doing) is leading into the CD and closing the CD like any other software that I've seen... the option to close the CD is shown no where...

It is not disconnecting my drives anymore... i dunno what all that was about... but I burned a CD and explored it and the track wav files were there... but something in the software is changing them from the audio they should be into just noise...

Also, I have the latest ASPI drivers for Win2K... got that from goldenhawk when I first installed it and got an ASPI manager not found error message...

I dunno about directX either, but Win2K comes with DirectX 7 built into it...

I really like CDRWIN because it allows you to use cue sheets and edit the indexes, etc... there has to be another program out there that also does this... fireburner, but it doesn't seem to want to work too well on Win2K... I'll keep looking I suppose...

Josh

BÜDD · Posts: 8

Hey I back.
Thanks for the replies....Now about my monitoring system. I use a Linn Magik Inegrated amp(which don't even have tone controls) with a pair of Grado SR60 headphones to do my CE work. I've been really lite on the processing And I beleive in keeping things as simple as possible. That is why I went for the M-Audio card, There just ain't much to it, and I could upgrade the A/D later with an outboard box if I wanted. My amp & cans (I like the way that sounds....amp&cans)may not be the best, but I am 100% sure that It ain't my monitoring system. ;D
Now, that same amp powers my Linn AV5140 speakers(NOT CHEAP) that I use to play back finished CD's to make sure every thing came out OK. I also have a CREEK integrated amp with a pair of TDL mini monitors in my bedroom with my other computer and various other componants. This system while not being as grand as the other is still quite able to reveal many things. On the other hand...My car systems, while not utter crap, are in no way as revealing as my home systems. And as I said in an earlier post, the "problem" exists in both car systems, and one of them was just installed a month ago, yet none of the players(6 total)inside my home have a problem with these discs. The problem will even occur when I use different audio recording software Shock

without any processing, just straight 16/44 capture. The only thig left to change around in my setup is the sound card. And I'm gonna do that in the morning if I get a chance, and I'll post to let youz guyz noze what happens. I'm just glad blank CD's are a whole HEK of alot cheaper than they used to be, cause all these discs(and my whole recording setup) are useless(gotta coaster for every glass in the house)if I can't play'em in the car:(

Thanks all,
BÜDD

Edited by - BÜDD on 08/03/2001 02:48:51 AM

Syntrillium M.D. · Location: USA Posts: 5124

Hi. Well, that's all very informative...But I still don't see the connection with the soundcard. A burned CD has little to do with the soundcard, after the fact. Transferring audio 'in' does, and certainly monitoring playback does.

What speed are you burning these discs at anyway? Higher speed burn can often yield more errors (not to drudge up some recent thread topics, but do a search if you like) and Car CD players might not be as forgiving...Who knows.

---Syntrillium, M.D.

jdechant · Posts: 58

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but I was reading back over the posts and noticed that the CDR is good and playable... it just won'y play in Budd's car stereo, his wife's or his brothers older(1987) CD player...

Budd,

Not all CD players have the ability to play CDR's... especially older players... and media is an issue too... some CDR's will not play in certain players but other brands will... TDK is a good brand, but what kind is it??? i mean the die thats used... silver on silver or true silver/silver is the absolute best since that is industry standard(silver CD's)... gold die is ok but is not guarunteed to work in all players... green die and blue die are the worst and probably will not play in older players... what color is the burnable side of the CD's you are burning...

If the disks plays back fine in some of your players, then the burn was sucessful.. it appears to me that your CDR media and car players are incompadable... I would recomend using only true silver/silver cdr's to yield the highest quality and playability... I would be willing to bet that if you tried a true silver/silver cdr that it would work in your car... I'm not sure but I believe TDK are gold which is ok for all newer players, but more than likely will not work in other players...

cdrexpress.com has Silver Diamond 74 minute true silver/silver 16x CDR's with jewel cases for between $.57 and $.75 a piece, depending on how many you buy... currently 100 are $62, 50 are $36, and 25 are $18.75...

Josh

BÜDD · Posts: 8

Hello,
Been burn'en @ 1x lately, cuase I'm still trying out CDRWIN & the demo will only allow 1x burns. It all started with EZCD 4 Deluxe with my old 4x burn'er, thought it was the burn'er so I bought a new one. Now I got 2 :)

And as I said before, when I did a disc to disc copy of a plane ol' CD(@ 12x mind ya'), It works GRRRRREAT!

As far as the conection with the soundcard, I dont get it either. Sad

But it's becoming the only thing left. Thats why I decided to post here. Soz I could see what some of the knowledgeble folk here would have to say.

I've done many serchez, and serchez, and the only thing that came close to my problem was this thread-
'Where did this crackle come from?'
But there was never any resolution to be read, that I found anyway, as to weather winch really had a bad burn'er or not. But from what I read, it seems to me that his problem was indeed his burn'er. IMO.

Mine ain't. I replaced it! Soooooooooo.....
Wa'd ya' think Synt? Different burn'er's, different software, and IRQ's(yes I even moved the card around the MoBo). Next is trying out different cards. I have to know if this problem will occur If I record with something physically different, but that won't be today(I have a life ouside my toyz) :(

So if anybody gotz anything else, I'm all earz.

Truly,
Thanks all
BÜDD

BÜDD · Posts: 8

Hey jdechant,
You musta' posted while I was typing my last post. Thanks for the info, and for noticing some of the thingz I said before, but I still don't see it being the CDR'z cause I can playback a CDR copied fron another manufactured CD.

BÜDD

Graeme · Member Location: Spain Posts: 4663

Looks to me as though jdechant has put his finger on the problem.

Obviously, your basic monitoring system is fine and the computer CD drives know all about CD-R discs - it's the car players which are not performing properly (and your brothers old player).

Fiddling around with the card or burning software isn't going to make any difference here. These players either will or won't handle CD-R's. You might gain a bit of mileage by changing the media, but you are obviously working right on the edge of what is acceptable in these players and I don't really think this is a good, long-term, solution.

Time to bite the bullet and install a car player which will handle CD-R's (I'm assuming there are some).

jdechant · Posts: 58

Oh and as an update to my problems, I downloaded the latest version on FireBurner and imported in some different style cuesheets and burned a few CD's and they all came out great!!!

I'll just keep a copy of CDRWIN handy incase I get stuck on cuesheets or want to look at another disks layout...

FireBurner is what I am going to go with now... it is an extrememly small download, but gives you complete control over the disk... although you can't do this in the program itself... you gotta know cuesheets and it uses these...

I also was going to try Hotburn Pro, which allows for complete control of the disk too, but the company was bought out by Iomega and Hotburn has been discontinued... couldn't find a copy anywhere on the net either...

oh well... it would've been about a 10meg download and fireburner was about 250Kb download plus a 1.3Meg support files download... I think I'm going with fireburner... and I'll keep Nero handy for data CD's and stuff like that cause I liked it better than EZCD4...

Budd,

It might not be the CDR's but it just may be... plus its an easy and simple way to test... just go to a local store and get a silver/silver CDR.. i really dunno what store you can buy them in... none around here... I gotta order mine off the net...

but i dunno why cd-cd would play and wav-cd wouldn't... maybe some players are funny like that... this whole burning process is new to me too and I'm still learning... I got a giant stack of coaster sitting next to the trash can from all my attempt with CDRWIN

Josh

BÜDD · Posts: 8

Graeme,

If it's the players then why do other CDR's work in them?

I repeat, it is only CDR'z that were burned from WAV files that do not work in these three players- one of them is brand new & also supports CD TEXT.

My brothers old player plays CDR compilations that I made of his CDs just fine as well(same TDK media)

I realize Youz Guyz Must think I'm Nutz, but I'm not new to burn'n disc'z, I am nutz however. ;)

BÜDD

Edited by - BÜDD on 08/03/2001 1:25:10 PM

BÜDD · Posts: 8

jdechant,
I'm sorry, I didn't even see your post till after I replied to Graeme. I thought about what you said on your previous post. As far as the silver discs go I thought about doing exactly what you said, only problem is it'll have to wait a week or two(I'm that strapped) Sad

But i'll give it a try if I haven't figured anything out by then. I'm gonna need more drinking glass too, for all my coasterz.

Thankz,
BÜDD

Graeme · Member Location: Spain Posts: 4663

jester700 · Posts: 546

One half-related comment:
I like the silver-on-silver that I've used, and they were very compatible. But they're not this way because they're "industry standard" - they're still a "burned CDR", not a pressed disc. Remember that the reflective coatings & dyes look a lot different to the CD's infrared leaser than it does to our eyes.

One would think that lighter, more "visibly reflective" surfaces would be better, but it ain't always so - the dark blue Verbatims were my favorite before they went to 80 min. (but let's not go THERE again... ;-) )