AudioMasters

I've put it here as it is more general discussion about options and ideas than specific hardware.

Now in order not to be surprised anymore I'd tought about putting together a mobile recording setup. Mobile in the sense of being able to be transported for location recording, not putting in your shirt pocket. The idea is to put together a package that is more or less ready to pick up and be deployed. I have played with the idea before but as I don't record often it always gets postponed and never happened.

I'm not planning on spending a lot on it, I hope to use whatever I have around. And in case I have to spend, spend it on gear that holds it value -like a mic or preamp- instead of something like an interface that migth be useless with the next pc/laptop.

First, let's start with what it will be required to do:
- record acoustic intruments on location. Mostly organ, maybe combined with something else and always inside.
- achieve good quality taking into account the situation. I'm not after commercial release quality. Mostly this is for friends asking to have a recording in order to have a memory of a performance. There is rarely time to rehearse, never the possibility to pick a time of the day it is quiet. But it should be good enough that you don't get red ears when you hand it over.
- at least 2h continous recording all tracks
- it will go to cd (so far nobody asked anything else), but it doesn't need to be available immediately.
- it should be transportable but it doesn't need to fit in a shirt pocket. Mostly these are organised outings, there is mains power available and someone around to help a hand. But I'd like it to be a single unit, a box of cables and the stand. Setup to be done in 5-10 minutes.
- for now I mostly use 2 mics but I'd like to experiment with a diy soundfield and ambisonics. So 4 channels are a minimum. Line inputs should also be available.

What is already around:
- desktop with RME digi9652, adi-8
- desktop with RME digi96/8
- laptop with FA-66
- Symetrix 2 channel mic preamp
- Fostex VC-8
- new laptop without firewire
- 2 Oktava mics (omni and cardio for both)

Until recently I used a Tascam DA-P1 with the Oktava's or a PCM-M1 with an EMC-909 for portable recording. But the laptop with the FA-66 is far better. Also considering that DAT is going the way of the dodo I don't think that this is an alternative anymore.

Option 1: I could dedicate the old laptop with the FA-66 for recording. This laptop has had its best days but it has 2 HD's which is usefull for this application. But I don't have 4 identical channels with it (2 mic inputs, 2 line and 2 optical spdif). So I'd need another interface. Problem here is that this isn't very futureproof as laptops with firewire are getting harder to find and I have not much faith in USB being a stable alternative.

Option 2: get an new laptop with firewire. This would solve the reliability problem of the old laptop but not the other issues.

Any laptop solution also gives a collection of boxes that need to be wired together to be usable. Something I don't like either, the risk to forget a cable or adaptor is too big.

Option 3: get a 1HU pc (old server), put one of the RME cards in it and get one of those cheap 19" bags/cases. Put the ADI-8 in it, get an 8-channel preamp with it, a headphone monitor and a patch panel at the back. Probably weighs a ton but it will be self-contained, fixed wired, just plug into mains and ready. Only issue I see here is a screen. With a laptop it is already there but here I'd have to lug a screen around.

I like the third option, it would be kind of a dedicated recording pc that is mobile to boot. No need to move the audio over to the desktop like I have do now. Plug the mains in, connect to the amp and (large) screen and I can edit. The RME stuff is good and reliable but I'm not so sure the idea of lugging a pc all around the place is the way to go.

Option 4: dedicated hardware recorder. Could be an older hard disc recorder to keep cost down and put it in a rack with some mic preamps like option 3. No screen or so needed, dedicated human interface instead of keyboard, mouse etc.

Advantage for this option is that there isn't a pc in sight. But it means transfering the audio to the pc for editing. But older HD recorders aften haven't stellar AD convertors.

What do you guys use for such situations? Any options I haven't tought about yet? Any serious problems with any of the options? Am I overlooking a piece of gear that would solve everything forever?

Well possibly one of the newly arrived mixers with USB2 interface and built in multitrack recording to SD card or USB harddrive as Steve suggested above. If you can't afford something like the RME there are some cheaper options appearing on the market. A Behringer (perish the thought) Xenyx UFX1204, for instance.

http://musicgearforless.com/UFX1204

That Behringer mixer is cheap - and that invariably means one thing only with Behringer. And what that comes down to is that the electronics will probably work okay, but the hardware will fall apart in no time...

If you don't want to throw money at it, then option three might work better than you think - you only have to take a small thin 15" monitor with you, and if you are careful with the way you plan the flightcase, you might be able to store it in the back. Also, it uses up some stuff you already have - not a bad idea if it works okay.

The older HD recorder idea is also sound - you can pick these up for not too much money these days, and something like an old Alesis HD24 could be used with a mic pre that has an ADAT output - and these are rather more future-proof, I think. This has worked fine for me for a long time now. It's also good on location - you can get it up and running very quickly. It's also dead easy to use in panic situations...

But however you look at it, I'm definitely a big fan of dedicated hardware on location - far less trouble than a laptop or a PC with a software recording 'solution' that relies on another software 'solution' called an OS... I'll use a laptop as a backup, but that's about all. I've only used a laptop as the only device for a recording once recently - and it worried me all the way through the session.

The cheapest 4-channel option that actually works (although you have to do an interesting interface job to use it with external preamps) is a Zoom H4N. At a pinch, you can get good results from them. There are plenty of other 4 to 6 channel options in portable recorders too, some of them quite affordable - but not without a few compromises, I'm afraid. The no-compromise portable recorders (like Sound Devices, Nagra etc) cost a bloody fortune. Doesn't stop me wanting one though! I keep thinking that if I sell all the junk I'm not using any more, I might be able to afford one...

Well I'm also more a believer in dedicated hardware. That's why I would prefer to have a dedicated pc/laptop if that's the road I go. Once setup and well running they tend to stay that way if not updated and abused for secondary uses. On the other hand the fast booting of an HD recorder is a good thing that in the situations I end up is worthwhile.

Going to read the manual of the UFX1204. A bit sceptical how easy such a thing is in actual use. Often these recorders have a convoluted user interface even while they are splattered with buttons. Maybe a bit too much "features"?

While I could probably afford a dedicated recording solution like the RME it just doesn't make sense for 1-2 uses a year. I bougth the Tascam DA-P1 years ago when I started working with the intention to regulary use it for this. But I don't think it has been used more than 50 times as a location recorder. The PCM-M1 saw even less use. There is no way I can in good conscience spend that much money on what is nothing more than a folly.

Going to look after HD recorders to see what is around. Only thing here I'm not so sure about is if HD's for these beasts are still available.

Old 1HU rack servers are about 200 euro. These are plenty powerfull for the task. Add a couple of hard discs and we're at about 400 euro. Only not so sure anout noise for this solution.

There's quite good unofficial support for the Alesis - even to the extent that you can get SSDs to run in them without difficulty. The disks use a non-standard format, and that's the only downside, really - there's this device called a Fireport that will let you read them directly onto a PC... but then you need a computer with a Firewire connection for it to work! Mind you, if you're using a PC to edit, this isn't really a problem, as you can easily get PCI Firewire adaptors. There's even some unofficial software which is way better than the Alesis offering - one way or another, these machines are well supported.

Mainly, I suspect, this because a lot of people think that there have only ever been two multitrack hardware systems that have ever sounded really good - the Otari RADAR, and the Alesis HD24. If you can get hold of the XR version, then the analog spec is even better - about as good as it can get, indeed.

Not that I'm biased, or anything!

My location recording rig is based on a Korg D3200 - I would not go the PC route, subject to any number of potential problems on the road and far too risky, IMO.

Most servers I've encountered have been too noisy for any real use. The HP one that I have here is in a desktop style case and is OK, though.

I am surprised that the Linux brigade haven't cobbled together a simple audio box, or maybe they have? A dual-booting laptop with 1TB drive(s) running something like Windows and a very basic, stable Linux is something I keep thinking would be quite usable with suitable interfaces.

Isn't that basically what a JoeCo BlackBox recorder is? And there is an ADAT I/O version. A bit more expensive than the RME UFX though.

http://www.joeco.co.uk/main/BBR_introduction.html

My standard recording setup is quite portable: a K&M stand with boom that gets me to about 2.5m, a TetraMic in a Ryecote shockmount on top for ambisonics, and a Tascam DR-680 with a 32GB card in it at the base for recording (it can do 6 analogue channels, and is really quite good).

No bulky cables to carry; but I need a wind-up mains lead, as I haven't got a battery for the recorder (using AA cells internally just doesn't run long enough).   I carry the lot on my bike, together with the music for the choir (as I am librarian).

Next outing (23rd March) is at Keble College, Oxford (my first time recording in there); the mic will be positioned for the choir, and the organ will have to take its chance - it will be interesting to compare the result with a recording I watched SteveG make there recently using his really long boom.

What Joeco don't have (I had a chat with them about it the other week) is a mixed-input version. You have to have whatever input you've chosen, and nothing else. So, when I asked about a version that has 1 ADAT, 8 analogue, and 4 AES... not a chance!

If that's in reply to my dual-boot Linux suggestion, I was thinking more of a laptop (this one has a 1TB drive), with a separate Linux boot partition with a small, stable version of Linux interfaced to perhaps a usb audio device. Admittedly, I know very little about this, and don't see many devices with Linux drivers, but basically I'm thinking of a small OS, no major graphics, no wifi, nothing but very basic i/o, that could record onto an external or a data partition internally. No cost at all if you have the laptop and the interface.

I've probably mentioned before that my first laptop recording was on a Fujitsu running Win3.11, mono and just a line input. It could be set to record and when switched on would boot instantly and just worked. I can't remember processor speed or memory, but they were enough for the CE 1.34 to record a Cathedral service. It would be good to get something like this running in a small corner of a modern laptop.

Sorry that this is really a bit off topic, but I was rather hoping that Havoc, as a Linuxy person, would leap in and say "I can do that!".

Hmm... this was my fault for telling Paul that I was doing it! My reaction to sticking the microphone where I normally would, and listening to the results, was to wonder whether I'd accidentally added a massive reverb processor to the output, realising that I hadn't, and basically, I ended up shoving the mic as close to the organ as I could physically get it. Which caused the performer to say 'I seem to have a new friend'...

And even with it there, sound emanating from the rear of the instrument is still beyond the room critical distance, and it shows. Overall, I'm not displeased with the result, though - perhaps we can share a bit of each approach?

(Should also mention that Keble chapel is, at its heart, a giant bathroom. What looks like brick walls are actually tiled - which gives the place an amazing sound if you're in it, and is inevitably a bit of a nightmare to record in.)

Have been reading about the Alesis and the HD transfer is something that pops up regulary. Haven't been looking into that software yet but I suspect it is Windows only (or even worse from my pov, Mac). This transfer business is what's holding me back on taking that route. It means having to transfer and edit on a pc. Using a pc based solution would mean a dedicated pc not dependend on my main desktop that is sometimes really messed up (because me experimenting with some software or other).


This is basically my laptop recording solution only it is linux only (there is a windows VM available but that is for 3D cad file viewing). I use the second HD for data and a FA-66 for audio. It is very dependable and from a software viewpoint only updating is a risk. I admit this is a function of the chosen distro and the will to try the latest versions but that is outside this discussion. Linux support for devices is rather good, it isn't seen as such because most makers don't supply drivers themselves but rely on available frameworks.

It is also the setup it would be if I choose a rackmount pc as solution. I don't use anything but linux at home.


That's my biggest fear of that solution. Afaik 1HU servers being plain loud. The desktop is already a bit too loud really and I fear pulling cooling air through a 1HU rack will be far worse. On the other hand it won't be running full tilt just pulling a bit of audio in so maybe underclocking and letting it run a bit hot could be an option.

Could those that say they don't trust a pc solution be a bit more specific? As I see it the biggest issues are noise, boot time, user interface (taking along screen/mouse/keyboard), size/weigth and mechanical reliability if using anything else than a laptop in portable applications. Otherwise the possibility to use a more open system (files readable without any problem, standard HDs), interfaces of choice, price, replacability look like positive points to me. And as it is a pc easy to take notes, make a backup on a location...

Took a look at the JoeCo but with it approaching 4000 euro it is out of the question. Nice stuff but not for my use of it. Going to read on the Tascam and Korg mentioned.

When we tried to find rack mount 1HU PC's for broadcasting, we failed. They were all far too noisy.

When my small fanless ethernet switch here died, my son lent me a 1U switch. That was too noisy. I then invested 99ukpence in a 48port 2U gigabit switch from ebay. It is just as noisy as the 1U, so I've arranged the machines so that I can power down the switch when doing anything audio-based.

My son has dumped a fanless PC on me here, running Vista. Its case is a large heatsink, and the builder has had to cut out a section to fit the one pci card in. Fitting any other boards would need similar surgery.
I haven't actually tried it, but he told me he dumped it because the metalwork became so hot, and because of Vista.

The Edirol / Roland R44 has turned out to be the last (serious) recorder I shall ever own.  There's now an 8 track version too.  (Panatrope's 2nd law of recording - the number of channels you need is always one greater than the number of channels you have).  It's surprising how handy it is not to have to be connected to a fixed power source in concert recording situations - you don't have to find a place from which to operate to which both mic and mains cables can safely and conveniently be run.

First end-user review of the R88 that I've seen - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/8840238-post22.html

I looked at the 8-track one - and it was immediately ruled out for me due to only analogue inputs. My view on this is that the world's moved on slightly since then... and it's not that cheap either, for the restrictions...

For not a huge amount more, you can get a far more rugged device from AETA - the 4MinX (http://www.aeta-audio.com/index.php?id=13). I've had my hands on one of these, and it's rather good... and even a brief look at the spec will probably tell you why I'm seriously considering it; I may even overlook the fact that it's French.

(if the AETA site plays up, you can have a look at it on the Pink Noise Systems (http://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk/Aeta_4_MinX_Mixer_and_Multitrack_recorder--product--828.html) site, where you also get to see the price)

Do you guys have any suggestion of something suitable below 1500 euro? I appreciate that a lot of you are (semi-)professionals in this business and as such can justify such expenses. And not in the least have knowledge about these things and how to use them. But for me these are just wet dreams.

I'd rather spend half that amount on gear and put the rest away for work on my pipe organ.

Depends. What would your minimum spec be?

input:
- 4 channels at 24/96 (using 24/44.1 right now so already some slack)
- line or adat
- at least a -6dB led
- if mic inputs then phantom/input, 10dB pad, 70dB gain and XLR's
(- luxury but if mic inputs an analog lowpass filter)

output:
- analog stereo or adat
- headphone that can drive 600 Ohm on a 6.3mm jack

various:
- number of possible recording tracks constant independent of samplerate, bitrate, inputs
- at least 4 hours recording time as a single file (or one file/track)
- files directly pc readable (.wav)
- monitoring on the inputs while recording (that made me lose part of the performance last time)
- no need of playback while recording, mixing, busses, effects, filters...
- no automation, midi, video

You could consider an Edirol R44, but I think the one in your price range that deserves a serious look is the Tascam DR680, which pretty much meets your spec head-on - apart from having twice as many tracks!

Or, if you fancy something a bit left-field, but more portable and cheaper, then a Roland R26, perhaps? (6 tracks with this one)

There may be more, but I think that these are the obvious contenders.

Have already had a look at the Tascam DR-680 as PWHodges mentioned it. Going to download the manual and take a deeper look. It looks good indeed and if I shop around a bit it isn't too expensive. But I'll still got homework to do on this.

He mentioned it because he has one! So he's probably a good person to ask about what it's really like in practice.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=157462.0 is the fifth thread on the DR680 on TapersSection forums - plenty of end user discussion there!

Feel free to ask questions.  Note that firmware updates made some significant changes relative to the main manual, with things like MS monitoring, arbitrary ganging of input gain setting, gapless switching to new files on long recordings.

Paul

Had a few busy days so this got put aside a bit. I did look around a bit for prices of alternatives and so far the Tascam looks the most interesting. Also probably the one to get running with the least "work".


Both very useful things to have.

Slightly more OT, but since Havoc inspired me to have a look at everything available... I might as well tell you that I've changed my mind about what I might go for, because it meets my spec (which relates very much to AES inputs) rather more closely and flexibly. And that's a Tascam HS-P82.

I've been reading around, and come to the conclusion that this may be as good a fit as I can find, considering that it's available at not ridiculous prices, and that Tascam appear to be supporting it quite well - several firmware upgrades to make it do useful things, as suggested by end users.


The other thing Havoc asked that hasn't really been answered is the question about why people don't trust, or even like, laptops running software as a primary location recording system. I think that certainly for me, it comes down to two main things:

Firstly, it's that the software you are running is just that - software, running in RAM that's also supporting an operating system. Plenty of opportunities for things to go wrong which are far less likely to occur with a firmware-based solution where everything is dedicated specifically to the task in hand, and not sitting in something that's essentially volatile.

Next it's the machine response time. With the HD recorder (and I think that this goes for most, if not all of them) it's possible to pre-load your session with named settings and record specifications, select it and have it available immediately* for use. With Audition (and it's not alone) even if you make all the folders, etc in advance and set up the session, the time between starting the machine and actually being able to record is sometimes significant - to the extent that once you've used a hardware solution, you won't want to go back.

On top of those two, I don't like mice-control on location - that can be a pain. And that's the other thing - you invariably have to spend a while setting up a laptop and connecting everything together. The HD recorder in the flight case is largely pre-configured from a connections POV as well as for the session - relatively little left to plug in; mainly microphones, headphones and that's about it.

Anyway, this all added together makes the case in favour of hardware-based recording rather overwhelming as far as I'm concerned.

*With the HD24 for instance, you turn it on, it mounts the drive, select the session, arm the tracks you want to record, and it's off. Takes a few seconds, total. With a laptop, it generally takes at least a minute before you can even open Audition, never mind record anything...

This is my portable setup in use in Keble chapel (iPhone photos, as I forgot to take my camera).

Here is the choir part of the chapel, with the organ very high up to one side - you can see the stand on the right of the photo:

(http://cassland.org/sounds/GermanRomantic/Choir.jpg)

Here is my microphone (the TetraMic), with tile mosaics behind:

(http://cassland.org/sounds/GermanRomantic/Mic.jpg)

And here's the Tascam DR-680 recorder sitting at the foot of the stand (I don't have a battery, and I don't trust internal alkalines to go for long enough):

(http://cassland.org/sounds/GermanRomantic/Recorder.jpg)

And apart from the Tascam power block and a wind-up mains extension, that's absolutely all of it.

I'm inclined to agree that a laptop solution is a bit messy compared with dedicated hardware, but if you are going to use a laptop, personally I'd use Reaper for live work rather than Audition - it has a number of features which suit the situation (not least being the ability to disable all keystrokes during recording, except ones you designate, which can involve two keys rather than one, thus making accidents pretty hard - also the ability to close the current file(s) at any point and open new ones from a key combo without losing anything).  And it starts rather faster, particularly earlier versions which remain available online.

I both trust and like my laptop system, running AudioMulch for recording; however, I have changed to using the Tascam for concerts because of its sheer simplicity and speed of setup.  It's one small box instead of two larger boxes, and can sit unobtrusively with the stand (as in the photo above), which the laptop and Traveler setup cannot.  For less pressured recordings than concerts (where I also have other duties, mind), the laptop and Traveler is still my go-to combination.

Paul

Here is a link to a thread with some results in... (http://audiomastersforum.net/amforum/index.php/topic,8657.msg76948.html)

Once one accepts that until and/or unless one reaches the point of access to the semi-trailer + crew (which introduces a new extended set of issue), plus being able to request with a straight face $10k plus points/track all mobile options are quantum intersections of  bad compromises . . . one can get down to effort of establishing flawed but functional logistic/ergonomic designs. In my experience there is very little intersection for dynamic let along casual practitioners.  The market, whether gratis or commercially remunerated, is always in violent flux . . . flux fueled by fashion as much as technology.  I had a medically enforced hiatus of about two years and trying to regain any revenue traction might well be impossible.

that said.  Alesis 24HD (particularly XR) convertors are 'ok' enough to not be a concern (function not fashion).  even when the fan is replaced the unit is noisy and better then adequate cooling remains an important variable to reduce 'mean failure time'.  A unit (with a little used bck/up for when) is still (and has been since 06 or 07 when I more or less despaired over any significant improvements in general consumer OS/hrdwr/sftwr systems).  The basic unit (which as been slightly modified several times) probably has less then a thousand hours but is somewhere in that neighborhood.

While I have not deployed 1Urack server for several years one in conjunction with some creative Visual monitoring, remote keyboards, a F/W MOTU interface (with 20ft umbilical) was functional . . . in studios that box could sit in guitar cabinet room with monitor, keyboard, interface in Live room (or control room) . . . not so much different from the 'is it rolling, Bob?' tape machine down the hall. positioning it, cooling it in remote sessions is not particularly more difficult.

While the guy I would have used to modify the basic devise died before I could afford to have him execute the modifications conjunction of a Zoom R16 (or R24) and lunch box (configured for specific session) is both highly portable and works well.  Generally I still edit/mix via desktop system but except for the experiments in turning around any of the first 3 sets to sell prior to venue closing I would in any case.  Absent demands of fashionable but not, generally, required poorly written plug ins CPU and/or disk load for audio work is not a critical stressor.  I have three XP systems with single processors that are still very useful that are more then a decade old. Have three dual processor systems old enough that they have no extrinsic value that pose no significant obstacle  l for audio mixing and/or editing (that is I can mix efficiently more tracks then I can manage mentally . . . but that will be an individual variable)

http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/hd24tools/manual/ (http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/hd24tools/manual/)HD24tools works for PC, Mac and I think with 'jack' under Linux.  transferring tracks does not require the relatively expensive fireport . . . and hardware device into which it is individually convenient to plug in the drive will work.  There are caddies that accept SATA and/or SSD drives.  The process is not as 'simple' as transferring from a 32 bit SD flash drive but it's simple enough that I could not quote the specific steps without reviewing the manual.  (of course I've transferred close to a thousand hours of audio so I no longer remember what it was like to not know how to do it . . . but I certainly do not see 'that' as a reason to discount the Alesis . . . that is out of print and no longer supported is a reason . . . but a working non XR version should be able to found for only slightly more then full retail on a Zoom R24)

If I were currently in the market for the 'next' hardware I would probably opt for RME UFX (neighborhood of $2k) f/w, USB direct to flash recording . . . in neighborhood of 24 channels . . . if one is doing this commercially it is probably an easy device for which to budget (if not purchase).  and theoretically anything that is going to address the remote recording 'market' needs to address how it is superior to the UFX . . . in my current opinion (which will change as the market changes) it is the 'benchmark' of minimal functionality that at this point the Joeco does not appear it will ever be.

main point is that there are relatively affordable options . . . with primary critical variables being personal ergonomics

I should have mentioned that the track on the other thread that I recorded went straight to a Fireface UFX via an ADI 192 DD to convert three lots of AES to ADAT. You've considerably underestimated the number of channels it records though - it's up to 60 via the USB port. And yes it will do it, although I got bored and haven't tested it beyond 40, where the SSD was ticking over quite nicely, and nowhere near out of steam...

The system is transparent. The quality of signals using it the way I did for that recording is determined entirely by the DSF1 mic control unit. The only analogue output on that is the headphone output - everything else is AES digital. If you record on the UFX via the mic pre's, the results are equally impressive - this is a classy box, whatever you compare it to.

Thanks for all the info, this is really why I keep coming to this forum. The incredible knowledge of its members whatever crazy situation turns up.

I'm working slowly on the numbers (money) side of this:

I'm sitting here already on a lot of unused (or badly underused) gear. That is why I'm reluctant to add a DR-680 to the lot.

So if I take a look at the options again:

- laptop: a new laptop or new interface would cost as much as the other options and consist of a lot of boxes and less optimal ergonomics.

- 1HU pc: a secondhand rack server, some hd's and an 8 input mic preamp looks for the moment a good idea. But the cost of decent mic preamps is a problem. Compared to what you get in the DR-680 you need to spend a lot more to get the same. And then you have only the mic preamps. Good points for this setup would be that I could use some gear lying around and use the rig for transfering LP's when not recording. which is about 99% of the time. Only real advantage is that I could easily start with 2 mic inputs because I don't have more mics at the moment.

- dedicated recording gear: the HD24 isn't an option. It needs a micpreamp like the previous setup and cost is comparable as well. It wins on ergonomics, (probably) reliability but looses on flexibility (just as heavy, needs another pc after the recording and cannot be reused for other uses if needed). But the DR-680 looks like a good thing. It is affordable and brings usable mic preamps and features in a single package. Only problem I have with it that it's going to be used not more than 3 evenings in a year. But the other solutions might get used even less due to being unwieldly.

On another note, does anyone knows this product: http://www.directout.eu/en/products/exbox.uma.html (http://www.directout.eu/en/products/exbox.uma.html)
I hadn't even heard of the company but the have some peculiar equipment.

While pricing out some components for the 1HU pc solution I think I hit the snag in this option: weight. And lots of it. Found a nice 1HU screen/keyboard tray but that is 12 kg. A 1HU server ticks 14 kg on the scales. Don't know what the ADI weighs but it won't be less than 3kg, add again that for a mic preamp and the 4hu rack bag. Total won't be far off 30-35 kg. While it can be called transportable it isn't mobile.

I could probably search around for lighter alternatives like alu racks, use a mini-ITX, some bare lcd screen etc. While that could be mobile it would probably not stand up to even casual use. If you're short on time it the gear tends to suffer.

So that leaves the DR-680 as the only sensible option. Unless someone has a better idea along that line I think that settles it.

That probably is the right thing to do.

The only alternative I can think of at all is to sell as much stuff as you can, and buy the (slightly over your budget, which is why I didn't suggest it) Fireface UFX. It's a 1U rack panel, only weighs 3kg, and would mean that you get 4 excellent mic pre's, direct to USB recording and also you could connect direct (via the other USB) to a laptop for backup. Stick it in the smallest flightcase you can get, and put the laptop on top of it. The only thing it won't do without an external preamp is cope with your record deck. After you've listened to its replay quality, there's probably relatively little that you'd be happy to go back to afterwards (although E-mu's 1820m still sounds pretty good...)

As for DirectOut - I looked at their products whilst researching AES to ADAT, but they hadn't got anything suitable; they seem to be heavily into MADI. When I was offered the ADI 192 DD, used about once, for half price, it seemed stupid not to have it. So I stopped looking at all at that point!

If you are into cobbling something together yourself I sometimes wonder whether you could hide one of these

http://www.bvm-store.com/ProductDetail.asp?fdProductId=733 (http://www.bvm-store.com/ProductDetail.asp?fdProductId=733)

inside a rack mount interface. I've used one for logging high definition raw photos and they're surprisingly cheap.

James.

Yes, I looked at mini-itx products and came across the pico-itx ones. But the problem is that when you put everything together it is just as expensive as a secondhand 1HU server with 2 dual core cpu's and 8GB ram. By the time you added the rack it's even more expensive! Probably a lot less loud and a bit lighter but far less powerfull as well. If you start to put it together with a bare lcd panel etc it isn't cheaper anymore than a good second hand laptop. But that laptop is probably better put together and more powerfull. So why bother?

I do have a mini-itx under my desk...use it as a footrest. Has a Creamware Pulsar in it! Another of those purchases that didn't get used. I had put that aside for the reverb for the organ. Maybe with an SSD it might be an option I hadn't considered.

Now it could be argued that you could put something like a DR-680 together with such a pico-itx, a small screen and a decent usb interface, add some electronics for psu and mic-preamp and slap a slim linux on it. No doubt I could do that, the question should I do it? It would be a decent project in its own way. If I didn't have already several dozen projects going I'd be tempted. (I realise I never should have written this paragraph... :roll:)


Well, I have no idea what such a sell would raise but after reading it a bit better it could indeed replace every other device in my setup (both fixed and mobile):
- replace the RME digi9652+ADI that sits now with the desktop
- replace the FA66 with the laptop
- replace the DA-P1 (and here it would be a serious technical upgrade but portable downgrade)
- replace the Symetrix mic preamp as it has directly 4 mic inputs

And it would not just be a replacement but a serious upgrade. It doesn't have a battery option but with the DR-680 that looks an aftertougth anyway. It has its price but it isn't more expensive than that Pulsar that was never used to record anything was. And taking inflation into account it is even cheaper. Only downside I see is that there is no linux drivers yet, but it is planned (and information is already with them). So it isn't a blocking issue, just have to transfer with a HD to the pc. That wouldn't be different with a DR-680.

Recording the deck isn't an issue. Right now the riaa preamp is permanently connected to the ADI. The problem is that because it is also the general purpose pc I rarely record anything because once seated behind it there are to many distractions. A separate pc might give that department a boost.

In the spec it says that the Fireface UFX consumes 22W - ie, not a lot, although this would go up a bit if you connected a SSD to the USB port, I think. I haven't timed it, but as far as I can see it would keep going for a long time on the UPS that I always run it from... and with modern inverters, it wouldn't be too difficult to create a custom power supply for it if you wanted to, I would have thought.

Yes, but then it would become another project, wouldn't it?

That's a real problem when you're a bit technical. Everything is an opportunity to re-invent the wheel. Only, if you sit down and think about it:
- it doesn't save money
- it doesn't gain time
- it isn't easier
- it can be really frustrating
- if you miss a piece of gear to check the correct working, it will never give you satisfaction

One of the things I'd like to make is a set of good mic preamps. Because they cost a lot of money and the basic electronics aren't that hard/expensive. And in a way it is perfectly possible to do so. Until you realise that you probably need more than a couple of prototypes before it works as intended. If you need to check if you have a decent noise performance you need an even far better measuring setup. And that last will cost you probably more than the double of whatever number of channels you think you need. Just making a setup for measuring noise at -110dB and making sure what you measure is what you intend to measure is a serious undertaking.

At such a point you need to sit down and think what is the goal of it all. It is all fine if your hobby is to make electronics because you won't have the time to record anything. (or it will al be in pieces when you want to record) I did the same when looking for a pipe organ. In theory it is a simple thing to make. But you need to consider if you want to build one, or if you want one to play on it.

I'm slowly coming to an age when you realise that you don't need to make everything yourself. (still a good way to go!) And I'm starting to realise that even if you can do it, there isn't always a good reason to do it.

PS: 22W + 5W for the HD + 2W for a little light = 30W. Trow in some loss and spare and you look at 35W to power. If you go 12V battery power then you'll need 6Ah for each hour you record. A 12V-12Ah lead acid battery is 4kg and then you need a convertor. And hopefully no filter to get the noise of the convertor out. Heavy, but compared to a 14kg 1HU pc not a bad solution either.

Been there, done that. I used to build them in pairs, and eventually they got good enough to use. And then I picked up an absolute bargain (Audient ASP008 (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr06/articles/audientasp008.htm), fully loaded), and haven't used any of mine for ages!

The only way that you can realistically look at making mic preamps is to do it because you want to, rather than need to - because by and large you don't need to.

There are some things that I'll always make though - the prime candidate here being mic leads; I don't recall ever buying a mic lead in my entire life - with the exception of the Soundfield ones, I suppose, but they're buggers to make if you have to do your own.

Agreed, and same for mic leads here: got a reel of 100m cable and a bag of XLR's. Don't know about soundfiel mics but as long as it aren't 7 pin Lemo OB size it should be fine...

Oh, no it's nothing like that - it's a mini 12-pin  Lemo!

Got it. That 7-pin lemo got me almost trowing everything out of the window.

I still don't get it why those bargains you always seem to find never come my way.

Actually, you've explained it very well, perhaps without realising it. I look for them actively when I want something like that - they don't find me. If I didn't do that, I'd have the same luck as everybody else, I think.

As far as the Audient is concerned, there's a thread about it from when I got it, back in 2006, here (http://audiomastersforum.net/amforum/index.php/topic,5638.msg62519.html). Good firm, Audient!

Back from an extended trip I find the discussion around a theme I started for myself some 2 years ago. My personal goal was to abandon carrying PC’s, peripherals, mixers and converters for location recording, which is heavy stuff. While my favourite was an SD788 which I could borrow from a friend for some occasions, this was far out of my budget but absolutely convenient with respect to application.

My  choice finally was the TASCAM DR-680 which is lightweight and easy to carry and comes close to the SD788 except some very sophisticated features such as delays and other complex possibilities. A good perspective is also to use 2 devices in tandem offering a total of 12 analogue microphone inputs which lasts for most arrangements.

In fact, the DR-680 filled my expectations except one very important point: It turned out that the microphone inputs suffered from an additional noise contribution of 9 ... 13 dB as soon as the internal phantom power supply is turned on. As this seemed to be an individual error first, eventually it was confirmed that all devices have the same error. Thus it is systematic and reduces performance considerably, as today almost all recordings are based on condensers. Possibly the figure may lower with older microphone types with transformer output. All other types suffer from a waterfall like noise in the background which makes all recording almost impossible except for heavy metal.

In between, the cause has been spotted after a lengthy period of discussion and consulting with the European representative and I own now the first item that has been modified according to my specifications. With the modification that includes 6 additional capacitors the DR-680 equals in performance with the use of a low noise external supply, and the input section is now of high quality.

There is no decision from TASCAM, how this modification is offered to the customers, former and future. Since I have specified the modifications based on the circuit diagram, I am willing to provide this on request by a personal mail. The problem is to find space to include the additional components in the heavy packed case as I have not opened any device by myself – this would void my warranty.

To prove the performance I include 2 samples recorded with the external supply. The piano recording proves the noise behaviour (there is only acoustical noise from the audience) while the Jazz recording proves the good transient behaviour of the microphone amplifiers. (There is also some MS-Processing). However, the *.mp3 conversion audibly reduces the original transparency of the drum transients.

Reminds me of the oscillations of the DA-P1 pre-amp at high gain. Mine went back for patching to Tascam. Good to know as having to use an external phantom supply kind of defeats the idea of the DR-680.

Since I found out about Lemo's cable making service, I haven't felt the need to solder one of their connectors. They're very reasonably priced although maybe not the fastest of turnarounds.

James.

Fortunately the Soundfield cables are pretty well made, and I didn't have to do anything. Hopefully if I look after them, I won't have to! I'm not sure whether the firm make them up themselves or not - trying to get an empty current-style cable drum out of them has proved to be difficult; apparently they all come in pre-loaded, and with the cable trapped at one end. But hey, that might be just an excuse; I'm going to find a different approach to this anyway, so it hardly matters.

I've just ordered one of these - http://tascam.com/product/dr-60d/ - to add to my mobile setup.  Chiefly for its intended purpose - DSLR video - but also makes an inexpensive location recorder with some handy features, that doesn't look like a "shaver" and doesn't have unnecessary built in mics.  MS support included so for a really minimalist rig, that with my Sennheiser MS pair and a pair of cans should work well.  (And it can write a safety track as well as the main pair at anything up to 12dB below the main tracks).

 8-)  That's a neat bit of kit.

Yeah - I think that Tascam are going to make a bit of a killing with those, at the price they're selling them for.

Hopefully they have managed to get rid of the unnecessary 9 ... 13 dB of unnecessary noise as in the original DR-680 !

No doubt ozpeter will soon tell us if they haven't  :-D

Indeed a nice piece of kit. Makes it even more difficult to choose. Until now I was leaning towards the DR-680 but the mic issue made me a bit reluctant to go that way. The RME is tempting but not for the use I'd make of it. But this DR-60 and 4 mic preamps wouldn't be that hard to carry along either and easy to feed on battery. Choices...

Looks like my DR-60D will arrive at the end of this week or beginning of next - they've sent me my tracking number.  Watch this space... yes, it has four mic preamps but only one pair has phantom, the other being designed for typical camera mics which use plug in power on small connectors.  Still, that should work with some Naiant mics - of which I have some - possibly over reasonably long mic leads - I'll test that.

They're pretty neat as well - great value for money :) .  All told, should make a nice portable rig

With my older US-122 series Tascam interfaces, the noise problem appeared when one of the two main channels had phantom power switched on and a condenser mic connected and the other main input had power off and was in use with a guitar or a dynamic mic.

The DR-60DThe does look a nice unit.